to ask this question about NHS

[sunshinecity17]

why do we have so many foreign doctors in the NHS?
There is no shortage of bright British kids wanting to go to medical school.Even if the full cost of educating them was born by the students, i am sure they could fill the medical schools.I used to work in a University medical school (15 years ago!) and the majority of students seemed to be from overseas..

I am not being racist or xenophobic, but today so many arguments are being trotted out about immigration being essential for the NHS, but i want to know why?

Its because they work for peanuts and get paid below minimum wage and stuff, thats why they come over here taking our bright kids jobs.

Same as builders

And waiters

And care workers

8000 places in medical school. 150,000 doctors employed by the NHS.

Cheaper to import them than to train them.

So are Overseas doctors on different terms and conditions to Uk doctors?

it's because there has been a shortage in the past of UK teens training to be doctors. there are many barriers to entry, grades, money, commitment to longer study, low pay and hideously bad working conditions in early career, stress, etc.

I'm a doctor. There are a limited number of consultant posts in the NHS as we can only afford and need a certain number of leaders in each hospital in each specialty. Junior docs who qualify in the UK enter a training programme where in the end they become a consultant or GP. There are the right number of these training posts (and medical student places) for the number of consultant and GP posts in each area. But many more doctors are needed for service delivery and it is many of these roles which are taken by overseas doctors. They don't get formal training during the job and so are unlikely to progress.
The other issue is that EU graduates now compete equally with UK doctors for jobs. Many doctors from Spain, Italy particularly are coming to the UK because of the economy in their countries.

Medicine does not attract enough students. It's not an attractive job anymore due to hours, expectations etc etc. Same as nursing.

Also medicine is no longer a male dominated profession, the majority are now female and a lot work part time. The average age of a dr leaving the profession is now in the mid 30s.

There aren't enough places at medical school for all the Drs the nhs needs. Remember a lot of qualified Drs will work part time and some will jack it in for various reasons.

Drs from abroad are on the same pay and conditions and these are usually better than what they'd get abroad. Plus the training is good. Remember all sho, registrar Dr posts are still training posts even though they're qualified Drs. So if they want the experience and to take the exams, etc then the nhs is seen as a good option.

I was joking, jesus of course they get paid the same.

No they aren't and anyway are there "A Lot" of foreign Drs here? Who says so?

The media aren't to be trusted on it, they use figures based on "White British" see here

Well my SIL is a GP and she wouldn't identify as white, she's British born and trained though.

The thing is there is a lack of medical school places and a lack of funding to increase those places, there is also the fact that we have freedom of movement so "Skilled" workers can move all over the world. Quite a few "homegrown" students can make far more money overseas to pay back their crippling loans than they can here, so they take their training and up sticks abroad.

We do need to increase medical school places but we can't match what the NHS needs so will still require some immigration. We also need to incentivise our medical professionals to stay within the NHS.

I've seen quite an influx of Greek Drs lately and wonder if this is something to do with problems Greece is having. Its a shame for some countries that there is a "brain drain" with good professionals leaving these countries.

We also need to incentivise our medical professionals to stay within the NHS

Which may include supporting them when striking for fair pension plans and against pay freezes.

Here are some reasons (BMJ study)

All colleague's daughter left to work in Vancouver less than a year after qualifying. When I went ' glad we paid for her training' she said 'we' didn't she had, which is hardto argue with.

What olympicsrock says. If they take on more medical students then in 12 years there will be lots of consultants and not enough consultant posts. We need foreign doctors in non training posts purely for service provision. The doctors graduating from medical schools all go into training posts to become consultants.

Some countries specialise in training home-born & then exporting doctors to the developed world. I think India, Nigeria & Cuba all have a niche economy for doing this.

I know at least 3 young, British trained doctors who aren't consultants & don't want to be, either. And consultants who were born & trained abroad.

so the crux of the problem seems to be these gold-plated career structures. Well that is what needs scrapping.There should be competition for this to

1. Ensure only the best doctors progress up the ladder
2. create more (self funding) places at medical schools to allow more British students kids to train and work as doctors in the uk.

How would you stop them moving overseas OP? Or marrying having kids and deciding they'd rather live on one salty than have the hassle of 2 shift patterns to work around. That's what happens to many of the drs who train here.

Salty= salary obvs.

I think you've read a different thread from me, sunshine. Only the best doctors do progress up the ladder. It's not automatic that medical graduates get onto the specialist training schemes and overseas doctors, whether from the EU or elsewhere, have to meet the same entry criteria as UK nationals. As others have said, there are umpteen non-UK nationals employed in the NHS as associate specialists or staff grade doctors. They will never be consultants but they do a lot of the basic work.

Also, what's the point in creating more medical school places if there aren't going to be enough consultant posts for all those students later on? You have to assume that the great majority of medical students should be going on to become consultants, surely?

But Mimsy that is the case in every profession and indeed organisation.There is a pyramid structure so that only a fraction move on to the next level up..There are not enough HT posts for everyone who qualifies as a teacher not enough bishop positiond for everyone ordained, not enough managing director positions for everyone in management.

taking our bright kids jobs

Except they're not our kids' jobs are they, they belong to the person who's doing the job currently

Some roles/specialities must be more attractive than others. For example, obstetrics inevitably has some crappy hours and limited opportunities for private work (particularly outside London).

Of course some specialities are more attractive than others.

There are currently about 30% of training posts in A&E unfilled (and therefore covered by locums / non-training grade doctors). This is because A&E has many deeply unattractive elements to it - frequent abuse from members of the public, unreasonable expectations, lack of resources, rotas that require working 3 out of 4 weekends with fixed annual leave (I have a colleague who was an emergency medic, who was married to another emergency medic - their rotas were perfectly aligned so they didn't have the opportunity to have a holiday together with their children for 2 years), compulsory exams that cost in the region of £1000 to enter for which no study leave is allowed etc etc

So people either change specialty, quit medicine or move abroad - Oz or NZ have loads of emergency medicine jobs with better conditions, fewer hours and the opportunity to go surfing at the end of the day.

Why do you have to assume they will be consultants, AllMimsy? You don't assume all teachers will become Heads, or all policemen will become Chief Constables, or all barristers will become High Court Judges...why doctors?
I don't have a problem with employing well qualified Doctors from overseas, though.

I think softly was being sarcastic reolutionary road , Junior Dr,s conditions have improved though over the past 20 years and I,m not saying they are great now but when I first qualified as a nurse in the mid 90,s you would find junior drs working with their consultant 9-5 mon- Fri than expected to do afull weekend on call from Fri 5 pm until Mon 9am and back Mon - Fri 9-5 with no break in between!