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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think, "Well said Prince Charles!"

306 replies

FrancesNiadova · 21/05/2014 09:40

I agree with the news commentators who say he shouldn't be writing to cabinet ministers, trying to influence policy. However, Putin, invading countries & handing out Russian passports, is behaving like a land-grabbing dictator.
Prince Charles is not the King, yet, so he is maximising his opportunity to say, well, what we're all thinking, basically.
I remember the controversy of the State Visit of the Chinese President. Instead of joining the formal greeting party & banquet, he booked himself to attend a much more minor event in Cornwall, to show his disgust for human rights abuses. The snub was not missed by the Chinese & the media.
Is it unreasonable to be pleased that he speaks out & a bit Confused by the bad press he's getting for it!

OP posts:
FrancesNiadova · 23/05/2014 11:24

Yes Sally, I've seen the DM' s front page on the BBC website today, it just makes me want to weep! Totally jingoistic, as it the RT media page.

What should be headlines is that 60 countries of the UN voted to take action against Syria for human rights abuses. China & Russia together vetoed it.

I wish more people would speak out.

OP posts:
Sallyingforth · 23/05/2014 12:18

Your forget the DM's other front-page story - some celeb showing off her tits!

DenzelWashington · 23/05/2014 13:23

What SoFishy said.

Recent US actions in Ukraine have been lamentable, and largely counter-productive. Putin is a repressive man who presides over a kleptocracy.

Puzzledandpissedoff · 23/05/2014 14:57

Can't there be wrong on both sides?

Of course there can, and it's one of the reasons I find all the remarks about the Daily Mail et al "deceiving" their readers very disturbing

I believe folk deserve more credit than that; few are completely stupid and most are perfectly able to form their own views on a subject, based on all sorts of information

It seems a bit ironic that some claim to detest prejudice, but then damn an entire group of people because they don't agree with their views, or use a news source they don't approve of; in parading their "liberal credentials" they can sometimes be the most intolerant of the lot

mathanxiety · 23/05/2014 16:06

The idea that Putin by signing a gas deal with China is in any way similar to Hitler in the 30s is ridiculous. Does Britain emulate Hitler by selling North Sea crude elsewhere? Or Vauxhall cars?

And as for defending his borders -- yes and why not? History has shown Russia one major truth and that is that invasion is a real possibility.

And wrt 'kleptocracy' -- nobody in the City is complaining. Russian money is as good as anyone else's when it comes to buying London property. Britain is happy to launder Russian money just as Wall Street is happy to accept profits made in China.

DenzelWashington · 23/05/2014 16:32

And wrt 'kleptocracy' -- nobody in the City is complaining

Yes, math, but I am complaining. Putin and his cohorts are billionaires, despite having no declared income but their modest official salaries. And a lot of it is stashed in London, and Switzerland, and other European countries or protectorates overseas, which is disgraceful

If you are saying that (UK) government attitudes to Putin and Russian money reek of hypocrisy, I wholeheartedly agree. Putin is still an appalling thief, though.

mathanxiety · 23/05/2014 16:53

Putin and his cohorts are billionaires, despite having no declared income but their modest official salaries. And a lot of it is stashed in London, and Switzerland, and other European countries or protectorates overseas, which is disgraceful

Is this something that can be proved about each and every person you have in mind?

DenzelWashington · 23/05/2014 16:56

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

mathanxiety · 23/05/2014 17:22

What -- is it unreasonable to ask for some sort of proof of serious allegations someone makes about a third party in a public forum?

Either this is a rational conversation or a free for all where we make stuff up and post it.

DenzelWashington · 23/05/2014 17:26

Sorry, ratty moment and I asked MNHQ to delete the post. My apologies, not having a good day.

mathanxiety · 23/05/2014 17:31

Sorry your day isn't a good one -- hope nothing too serious and that things will improve Flowers

DenzelWashington · 23/05/2014 17:33

You are very kind. It is shittily serious and will not improve, so I MN for an escape but I think if I am going to start swearing at other posters I may have to think of doing something else for a bit. Sorry once again.

mateysmum · 23/05/2014 17:34

Charles's remark was unguarded, but he is right, in the context of creeping annexation of land - which is how Hitler started out.

Putin is a pretty unpleasant character and the Russian government has many good reasons to go completely over the top in its reaction.

They are desperate to distract attention from all the nasty things they are doing in Ukraine and Putin's desire to see a stronger Russia (echoes of 30's Germany again). Russia is a totally undemocratic society which supresses minorities it does not like (echoes of Germany 1930's again) and likewise has no tradition of free speech. Everything that Charles stands for is abhorrent to the Russian political tradition since 1918.

I'm not suggesting Putin is like Hitler in all senses, but let's not try and put him in the right and Charles in the wrong.

And yes I do know what I'm talking about. I have lived in Russia and speak some Russian.

mathanxiety · 23/05/2014 17:57

The Russian political tradition has changed significantly since 1918 (or 1917).

It is arguable that everything Charles stands for and represents and everything his family and ancestors ever stood for and expressed was well expressed in the Communist system as it developed in the USSR. I am thinking of the elitism, the brutal treatment of the powerless, the persecution of religions and discrimination against minorities both ethnic and religious, the sacrilege and plundering of churches, the man made famine.

mathanxiety · 23/05/2014 17:58

In Ireland as well as in Britain.

mathanxiety · 23/05/2014 18:00

And also the division of a formerly unitary political entity and the turning of a blind eye to the denial of civil and human rights to the large ethnic/religious minority that lived there, for almost a century.

mateysmum · 23/05/2014 20:21

Maths I don't think you can say that Charles epitomises the communist system!

All nations and governments have at some time been guilty of some or all of the sins you list above. The difference is we now accept that this was wrong. Our society/government today is far from perfect but it its faults do not make it anything like Russia and does not make Putin/Russia any less wrong.

Sallyingforth · 24/05/2014 09:24

Yes "mateysmum*
Whatever may be said by Putin's apologists, the parallels with Hitler are plain for all to see.

But it would be interesting to know what Charles says about the US in private!

mathanxiety · 24/05/2014 19:22

I don't think I said that, Mateysmum.

And I don't think the current Russian government thinks the Communist system had much to recommend it. The Russian Federation has been particularly keen to establish freedom of worship and to encourage the Orthodox Church. As I said earlier, this element of post Communist Russia is one that elicits a shrug from many western European commentators because they are indifferent or outright hostile to organised religion. It is a very significant de-Communising aspect of post-Soviet Russia however. And moreover, it is one that enjoys popular support in Russia. Commentators who want to see change in Russia that would not be supported by the majority of Russians have a 'we know better' attitude that is not respectful of democracy.

There were elements of the Communist system that were a plus for Russia and many of those have been identified and supported. In particular, having efficient, modernised and well trained armed forces is a lesson learned from bitter experience in the twentieth century. A decent education system, sports, improved housing and infrastructure are other elements of later Soviet life that have seen more attention in the years since the end of Communism. Ditto improved management in business and industry -- something that pained Russians immensely was the sight of going concerns with good management shut down and sold off or transformed unnecessarily while the economic theories of Jeffrey Sachs were put to the test in the immediate aftermath of the fall of Communism (and Russia was almost destroyed). Housing, infrastructure, sport and improved management are items on the political agenda in Britain too.

Only in the very recent past has Britain started to come to terms with its legacy in Ireland. The symbolic exchange of visits by HMQ and Irish President Michael D. Higgins occurred within only the last few years. An overhaul of the Bloody Sunday investigation and refutation of the previous report that whitewashed a crime against civil rights campaigners took years to come about. Why were there civil rights campaigners in Northern Ireland? By the same token, the Republic of Ireland has been shaken to its core in recent decades by revelations of abuse of children and women by the RC church in reformatories and the infamous magdalen laundries. An absolutist system that did not answer to any authority flourished in Ireland for seventy years. On the surface, Ireland is a democracy, with fair elections, peaceful transfers of power, a justice system inherited from Britain and based on the Common Law, and yet the poor and especially poor women and children found themselves completely invisible and silenced.

A lot of what passes for intelligent commentary on Russia is actually restatement in many different ways and with varying tones of impatience of the question 'Why is Russia Russia? Why can't Russia be Britain (or Texas, etc)? There is a huge amount of political and cultural arrogance behind that attitude. There is also a very disturbing unwillingness to see what Russia and the west have in common that almost amounts to dehumanising of Russians and Russian political leaders. The caricaturing we see in the 'Hitler' remark is an example of this. And calling commentators who call attention to details that contradict the 'Bad Russia' thesis 'apologists' doesn't make for the shedding of much light on a topic. If light isn't what you are interested in that's fine, but you have to ask yourself whose agenda is furthered by the shedding of heat.

mateysmum · 24/05/2014 20:49

Have you ever been to Russia Math?

Yes, levels of literacy in the Soviet Union were admirably high and I agree that the freedom of the orthodox church is a positive outcome since the fall of the Soviet Union, but I must disagree with many of your other points.

For the vast majority of Russians, there has been little improvement in housing and infrastructure in recent years. In Moscow, all but the very rich still live in soviet apartment blocks, some still in communal apartments. Go 20 miles outside Moscow and you go back 2 centuries. Many people live without indoor sanitation or power, farmers have little modern equipment and roads are little more than tracks. I say this not from research, but from real life experience, picking my way through human poo when I went a walk with the dog in the wood behind my house.

The "efficient, modern and well-trained army" you talk of is largely full of national service conscripts. The tales of brutality and bullying of conscripts are horrendous and disregarded by the authorities. Those who can, do anything to avoid doing national service. Again, I know Russians who have been there and done that.

Good, modern management in Russian companies is limited. Many miss the old days when there was a job for life and you could keep a handy bottle of vodka in your desk drawer. Alcoholism is still a massive problem. Have you seen the drunks literally lying in the gutter in central Moscow whilst the police and public just ignore them? Many older people have found it very hard to adjust to new working methods. The going concerns you speak of were mostly only viable whilst they were propped up by state money.

Corruption is still institutionally endemic in Russia. The rule of law is not respected and more or less any policeman can be bribed. I know. We had to do it once to stop our car being impounded!

I'm not sure why you bring up Ireland. What do you mean "on the surface Ireland is a democracy"? It IS a democracy. Poor women have as much right to vote as other women.

Russia has made big strides, but the leopard has not changed its spots.

mathanxiety · 24/05/2014 22:10

The right to vote in and of itself is not what makes a democracy. As far as poor women were concerned, Ireland was more like Afghanistan than a western European democracy during much of the twentieth century.
I bring up Ireland to illustrate what can lie behind any facade of freedom, justice, etc.

How does poo in parks say anything about politics or freedom or general prosperity? Absence of poo likewise. Or the presence of drunks or junkies on streets (which is a striking element of British city and town centre life too)?

Living conditions in many parts of the world were and in some cases are still very similar to those found in poorer rural areas of Russia not too long ago. Rural electrification in Ireland was completed in 1973. My mother grew up in a home lit by candles and lanterns. An aunt of mine finally got a phone after years on the waiting list some time in the early 80s.

Ireland has made big strides, but as the experience of Savita Halapannavar in Galway Hospital showed, women are still second class citizens when it comes to dispensing medical care. The recent Irish banking crisis brought to light a very cozy relationship between politicians and the titans of the Irish banking and property development world that shows the only thing you can truly rely on in public life is that people seem to lose their inhibitions to an alarming degree when other people's money is at stake, and that those responsible for theft on a grand scale will protect each other no matter what the cost to the public. Corruption and a 'screw the public' attitude mean that every individual in Ireland owes just over $60,000 to Ireland's creditors, an amount exceeded only by Japan. In what sense is this freedom?

Two of my DCs spent teenage summers volunteering in the American Appalachian region making homes habitable in deprived and isolated counties. They encountered poverty and helplessness and addiction there on a scale they never thought possible. It doesn't mean America isn't a good place to live, for many.

The DCs grew up in an American state where four of the last seven governors went to jail for corruption. One prominent Congressman and his wife negotiated a plea deal on their corruption charges. At any given time several city council members of the local big city are being investigated by the FBI for corruption and many have done time for corruption. You would think in a society that claims to be one where the rule of law is respected that individuals holding public office would realise they shouldn't be trying to sell Senate seats, making state employees 'donate' to their election campaigns and squeezing them so hard that they sold drivers licences to individuals who couldn't drive trucks safely and who then went on to kill entire families out on the motorways.

Whether America itself is a democracy any longer was recently questioned by a study by Princeton and Northwestern academics who concluded, "The central point that emerges from our research is that economic elites and organised groups representing business interests have substantial independent impacts on US government policy, while mass-based interest groups and average citizens have little or no independent influence." An oligarchy in other words. Again, it doesn't mean America isn't a good place to live, for many. For the time being.

SoFishy · 24/05/2014 22:35

Yes Ireland was an appalling place to live especially for women, and is still not great misogyny-wise (though nor is the UK). A huge part of that was thanks to the power held by the Catholic church.

Putin's links with the Russian Orthodox church actually line him up with a similar set of homophobic, misogynist religious repressive attitudes which might be why Pussy riot chose a Cathedral to protest in. He is heading backwards to become more like 20th-century Ireland (and 80s Thatcher's Britain for that matter).

I don't see why holding up disastrous failings in Ireland, the UK or US as an example is supposed to make Russia/Putin look good. No one has claimed the west os perfect, far from it. Hitler himself was a western leader. To point out parallels is not saying "Putin is evil and is not like the pure and perfect West". That's a bonkers interpretation. Tyranny and oppression and genocide and all these horrors can happen anywhere. that's why it's wise to be on guard for them. People who are aware of Putin's worrying behaviours are not somehow idiotically unaware of evil things that have been perpetrated by the US, Ireland etc.

mathanxiety · 25/05/2014 02:41

It's not supposed to make anyone look good. That's the point. Saying that the west has its many faults is not to say Russia is wonderful and blessed with marvellous leaders. But demonising Russia, commenting on the situation in Ukraine without reference to context, resurrecting Cold War shibboleths, and seeing only Russian shortcomings hardly makes for enlightened discussion.

On the subject of 'homophobic, misogynist religious repressive attitudes' -- Russia has always been a conservative society. Why should it hurry up and become cool like western societies that have completely different history, completely different social structure, and completely different religious culture? The west sees itself as enlightened and secular but the outcry about Russian cultural values bears the mark of distastefully evangelistic crusading. If it wasn't ok for the USSR to impose Communism on eastern Europe or Asia then it's not ok for western Europe and the US to impose its own form of righteousness on anyone else either. And it doesn't matter how convinced the west is that it is right.

Accusing Russia of having territorial ambitions in Europe is a sad piece of cognitive dissonance when the only international organisation with any military heft to it that has been expanding in Europe is American-dominated NATO.

Up until very recently, America was a very conservative society too, and in fact since most of the legislation on marriage equality and gay rights has come about as a result of decisions in federal courts and the Supreme Court, it may be argued that America remains a rather conservative place on the whole.

Hints that popular opinion is far more conservative than the legislation might suggest come from states like Arizona, where earlier this year the governor vetoed a bill that made it through the state legislature allowing business owners to refuse to serve gay people if they felt their religious rights would be infringed by so doing. Arizona is notable for legislation that is anti-immigration, anti-abortion, pro-gun rights, requiring candidates for president to show proof of US birth - some vetoed and some struck down by the courts, but all of it made its way through votes in the state legislature. One of the reasons for the blossoming of right wing bills there is that the state is among the few that fully funds the campaign for legislative and state offices of any individual who wishes to run and can demonstrate the support of less than 300 fellow citizens while at the same time greatly restricting the amount that can be privately donated to candidates who opt out of the public financing -- this ironically levels the playing field and allows the grievances and preoccupations of average citizens to be aired and become part of the agenda. It's possible that if America was less of an oligarchy and more of a democracy it would be far more conservative.

mateysmum · 25/05/2014 07:47

Math. You didn't answer my first question. Have you ever been to Russia?

Let me answer some of yours...

"How does poo in parks say anything about politics or freedom or general prosperity? Absence of poo likewise. Or the presence of drunks or junkies on streets (which is a striking element of British city and town centre life too)?"

Poo says a lot about prosperity. That on the outskirts of Moscow people do not have basic sanitation.

The drunks in Moscow are not like the Saturday night drunks in the UK. They are sad alcoholics, the product of a disfunctional society. The average life expectancy of Russian men is very low and that is largely as a result of alcohol.

Nobody is saying that poverty/corruption etc do not exist elsewhere, but no way can you equate the situation in Russia with the US or Ireland. Like all countries, Russia has its positives and the Russian people can be wonderful friends but it is still a country that oppresses those who oppose the government in a way which would be unacceptable in the West. You seem to be saying that because bad things happen elsewhere, Russia is no worse. I disagree.

Animation · 25/05/2014 09:30

Well back to Charles, - I think he did good.

Putin's reaction that Charles was inappropriate and unroyal I find quite amusing.

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