to think that DD needs to stop crapping her pants?

[brdgrl]

Every night. EVERY night.
She's almost 4. She has been toilet trained for a year.
Every night.
I sit her on toilet. She insists she doesn't need to and can't go.
I give up eventually and put her to bed. She promises, again, to call me if she needs the toilet. Time passes. Sometimes I check in every so often, but it is always the same - nope, can't go, I'll tell you when I am ready.

Then....she calls. I go. She has not only had a poo, but has undressed herself and tried to clean it up. I spend next twenty minutes cleaning up poo. Tonight I cleaned poo off the wall, off her, her pjs, her sheets, a dish towel that she'd used to try and wipe herself (ok, that one I just threw in the bin).

She gets rash. That makes her try to hold it.

She is not asleep when this happens; in fact, she can't fall asleep until afterwards.

I try not to be too cross, so as to make her more anxious about it and maybe make things worse - she gets anxious about me being cross - but I want her to know it has to stop.

Have tried a reward chart - this has worked with her for everything else so far - no luck.

Every. single. night.

She completely understands. But she doesn't seem able to stop this habit.

As VanGogh says supporting her feet when on the loo will help! but her knees should ideally be higher than her hips.

If the poo is escaping her nappy/pull up, does she need the next size up?

YY to metanium for any kind of nappy rash, but Sudocrem as a barrier.

She's only 3! I know how frustrating it can be but, honestly when I clicked this thread I thought you would be talking about an older child.

My DD is 9 and still sometimes has issues as she witholds when she is stressed or worried and then has an accident. But she does it when she feels safe, so at home and nearly makes it to the loo. Sounds like your DD only relaxes and feels safe to do it when she is snuggled in bed, so I would be wondering why.

Is she ok at nursery? ARe there any family issues, arguments etc?

At 3 it is annoying but wouldnt be considered abnormal by a doctor.

And "Crapping her pants"? Really?! If that is how you refer to it and your attitude in dealing with it is the same then the worry of your reaction will make it worse. She is barely out of toddlerhood ffs, if she was 12 then you might have a point.

I think the OP has explained she was deliberately exaggerating out of frustration/for comic effect, Bogeyface. It's an awkward topic that isn't easy to bring up.

Brdgirl, have a read of this about how seating position on the loo can help- its a bit cringey, but there's some useful information in there.

I dont buy that BOF I dont see that "crapping her pants" was the joke at herself the OP tried to make it out to be, she only said that after being pulled up on her attitude to the issue.

The only way to deal with an issue like this is to make sure it isnt an issue. I have been through this with DD for many years and I can guarantee that the odd time (and it has been an odd time) when I have "Oh DD! not again!" without thinking, she will do it again for the next 2 or 3 days.

Sometimes my acting skills now would win me an Oscar, but by just doing the necessary and asking if she wants a clean nightie or would she rather have PJs, do you need a drink of water? etc, she relaxes and it doesnt happen for a while. She gets stressed at school, it always happens just after the latest fall out with her best friend. I cant do anything about that, and in the last year or so it has really slowed down, she has only done it once since Xmas despite many fall outs, which is a massive improvement. She is growing out of it I think, but she would be regressing if she sensed for a second that I was pissed off about it.

Which I should say, I am not! But when faced with poo at midnight I defy anyone to be happy about it!

I dont buy that BOF I dont see that "crapping her pants" was the joke at herself the OP tried to make it out to be, she only said that after being pulled up on her attitude to the issue.
Erm, that's not really fair. Actually, people had been really quite nice to me, I think, and I didn't feel I'd been 'pulled up'. So believe what you like, I suppose, but it was me that commented on my own thread title, not anyone else. I have been honest about my own failings on this thread, and yes, I was deliberately stating it in stark terms because I know perfectly well that I should not be frustrated by a child's poo, but I had just come down from cleaning shit off a wall, As you say yourself, who would be happy about it. I have said that I try to 'act' for DD, but I didn't come on here to perform for the world of MN, I came on for some advice. Which I have gotten, and am thankful as hell for. I put this on AIBU mainly 'for traffic', as many do, and I was not entirely serious in my thread title, in keeping with the AIBU style.

VanGogh and BOF, Audit - thanks, another thing I hadn't thought of. She uses the tiny toilet at nursery with no problem, and there her feet reach the floor.

Oh my goodness. You poor thing. DS did a couple in his sleep at that age (after being toilet trained) and it was AWFUL. I can't imagine having to deal with that every night. DS was also very late to be toilet trained. Would scream for over two years and go rigid if I tried to get him to sit on a potty and child seat on regular loo. The pivotal point for us was to take him out without a nappy/pullups. At home, he would have 'accidents' regardless but he kind of knew it would be embarrassing to do it at the playground. Perhaps if you put her in 'big girl' underwear that she really liked (Disney characters etc) and madeit clear they would have to get thrown out if she had an accident in them would motivate her more to call you before she had a bowel movement?

Sounds like your DD only relaxes and feels safe to do it when she is snuggled in bed, so I would be wondering why. Is she ok at nursery? ARe there any family issues, arguments etc?

I think its possible what happens is that she holds it in until she gets so tired that, as a pp said, her sphincter relaxes and out it comes. She falls asleep very quickly after she's had her poo, even after staying awake for ages beforehand - so I think if we can sort the poo issue, she'll also get off to sleep more quickly! It's keeping her awake trying not to go.

The rash is part of it - she is scared of the poo because it hurts, and because being cleaned up hurts. I use cotton and water rather than wipes, which sting her more, and have to do it very carefully because it gets so raw. I hadn't considered food intolerance because she has never had any other problems with food and her general health is excellent.

She loves nursery. She's a happy kid at home. She is unhappy when she poos.

mimishimmi, thanks. I have been trying to stick to positive reinforcement rather than taking things away, so maybe not throwing out the pants, but getting her 'special' ones.

She has a favourite blanket, and when this happens, "he" sometimes gets poo on him and has to be washed, which means she is without him for a night. That's upsetting to her, and I had hoped maybe would be an incentive in itself. The more responses I read on here, though, the more I think maybe she genuinely isn't able to 'feel' the need to poo like she should, because of having withheld.

This must be very stressful for you and your dd. I agree with the other posters that she may not like going to the toilet because sitting will stretch the bum and if she's a bit constipated it will hurt more. Giving her movical will hopefully take the pain away so she loses the association of pain and toilet.
I would also stop talking about it. Even in a nice way about how to solve it and it gives her a rash etc, it's still reinforcing that it's something she should not be doing and it needs to stop...which of course is true but it's not helpful for her to feel that, I would stop talking about toilets altogether, unless she brings it up. But at the same time give her loss of cuddles tell her you love her etc.
And at bed time don't even mention it, just say call me if you need me before you say goodnight.

Sorry Brd

I admit I did get cross because I have dealt with poo issues for so long and feel quite defensive about it. It makes me angry when I hear phrases such as "crapped his pants" when referring to a baby or toddler, because thats normal so I worry that the child will be made to feel bad for what is a normal function.

I apologise for being so snitty. My issue, not yours.

Anxiety... You mentioned you moved house AND you've gone back to work recently which are both major upheavals in anyone's life, let alone a 3 year old. Could that be partly where it is coming from? Poor girl (and poor you OP). Hope you get it sorted.

That's upsetting to her, and I had hoped maybe would be an incentive in itself

You are thinking about this as an adult, but at three she wont think like that. You think "If I dont do A then I will have B!" she thinks "A happened and now I dont have B :( "

Its difficult, because they understand cause and effect in some things "dont eat veggies, dont get pudding...hmm, ok I will eat the brocolli" but this is involuntary so she perhaps sees it as a punishment, even though you know it isnt.

Oh Bogeyface - it really is hard, I do know.

S'ok, bogeyface. Thanks.

I would also stop talking about it. Even in a nice way about how to solve it and it gives her a rash etc, it's still reinforcing that it's something she should not be doing and it needs to stop...which of course is true but it's not helpful for her to feel that, I would stop talking about toilets altogether, unless she brings it up. But at the same time give her loss of cuddles tell her you love her etc. And at bed time don't even mention it, just say call me if you need me before you say goodnight.
I will.

You mentioned you moved house AND you've gone back to work recently which are both major upheavals in anyone's life, let alone a 3 year old. Could that be partly where it is coming from?
Yes, I'm sure - especially the work thing. :( I know it affects her...she gets more impatient with DH and more clingy with me when I'm not around as much. Fortunately, I have far less hours in summer!

The thing is she's not doing this because she wants to, that she's cleaning her self up points to it being something she knows she should not be doing but can't help it, so using incentives probably won't work. If it's an anxiety issue incentives won't work, and if it's constipation or an involuntary act when she relaxes incentives won't work it just reinforces that she's failed.
Hopefully the movuxal will help that she can't hold it and it won't hurt and gradually it will get better. That's what happened to my dds when he was constipated and it hurt so much he was terrified to go to the toilet, he would hold it and holds it and he had stomach aches from it he would be crying in pain and fear..it was just awful but I loaded him with movical and he couldn't hold it and it didn't hurt as much as he thought then gradually it went back to normal. But I have to say the fear of going to the toilet in case hurt again lasted quite a long time after the physical side of it was sorted. I had to go into the toilet with him and hold his hand for ages.
But it will resolve, it may not seem like it now when you're in the middle of out and when you're stressed with full time work, but it will.

Thanks, verystressed. I'm sorry to hear all these stories, but they are helping me understand.

Thanks Brd

Bof thank you too :)

I have irritable bowels, and with that get constipated quite easily.

Using the toilet to poo when badly constipated (I also use movicol) is quite hard, to be honest. I should have namechanged often go & lie down until I feel on the very verge of needing the toilet & then run for my life.

I won't tell you anymore then that :) Suffice to say, as an adult, I hate using the toilet when badly constipated.

I think it is do to with relaxing everything that helps me. On the toilet, trying to hard, everything is tense & I get quite wound up!

*too

brdgrl DO NOT let anyone guilt trip you on this thread!!

I went through impaction with dd (then 5) when her sister was born. I dropped the ball & because of a section, illness, demanding baby, dd1's diet tanked.

I couldn't see it happening as I was in the new baby fog. I soon sorted it, but realising it was my fault was awful. We make mistakes. It happens, you WILL get through this.