To wonder why women are not allowed into combat?

[Weathergames]

The main reason being they don't have the "upper body strength" but Olympians have disproved this.

If you want to join the forces male or female
surely you should be able to perform all roles required (however grim/unethical etc).

Former head of the Army, Lord Dannatt, said keeping women out of combat roles was a "point of principle".

"To be in a unit that is given orders to attack a hill, to attack a town, to attack a village, that is a role not for women," he said.

Am not sure about this - OH is a submariner and they have allowed women on board (they must be NUTS to want to go).

Surely it's pretty sexist?

LteEveDallas talk about making a problem out of nothing. Wtf would you be doing with a glass coke bottle in lengthy camouflaged OP anyway?

Who mentioned glass? A coke bottle was an analogy, any plastic bottle that can be carried empty, sealed and carried back full would do. I still don't see a female, lying down, being able to do that one-handed.

I actually did the SAS If You Think You're Tough Enough recruitment day in Wales Well done, that's a great achievement. I know few women that could manage it. It's not the Infantry though.

Wow i'd love to work alongside you, your name suggests your an officer My name is a character in a JD Robb series of books. I am a non-commissioned Warrant Officer with 24 years Service.

Also myself and a team of other fenales were capable of carrying a 45lb Bergen for 40 miles in just under 10 hours Good, again that's a serious achievement, but it's not the Infantry. A basic Infantryman, at the very start of his training needs to be able to carry 32 Kg (66 lbs) plus helmet (2 Kg) and Rifle (4 Kg) over 8 miles in 1 Hour 50 minutes. That's hard - and that is the basic standard - they need to improve on that as their training progresses.

Maybe your just a little jealous of female soldiers who are more capable than yourself. That's how I'm seeing it. Not at all. I used to be able to do a lot more than I can now, but I'm 42, injured by my Service and have enough experience to know that the majority of my colleagues - the ones this would actually have an effect on - don't want it.

I wasn't comparing it to infantry standards , I was addressing your point on women being heavily built or overweight.

But my comment was about Infantry standards - and 'overweight' was in ' ' because those women would be considered overweight when put against the 'perfection' that is the size 8 willowy ideal that most people see as the correct weight/size. I don't, I'd rather see a well toned, muscular, stong female. An athletes figure I suppose.

I have no urge to join the armed services myself but am in awe of women who manage on the front line. Every so often I come across articles about them, god they are tough. Here's a map showing which countries allow it: www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2013/01/25/map-which-countries-allow-women-in-front-line-combat-roles/

If only we could trust our politicians to not go to war unnecessarily, not waste lives and at the very least to properly equip the poor buggers out there. Here's a wish for peace on earth (clue: username).

I’d love to work under LtEve. Her posts are always well considered and well informed, she’s vastly experienced, has carved out a career and raised a family in a sector which is not family friendly. And, most importantly, she’s never slow to point out when the army are fucking up. If she, based on her experience and those of her peers, thinks that this is a pile of balls right now then I’d tend to agree with her. It’s the views of those on the ground that matter, and they're not listened to enough. As Rommel said, ‘Don't fight a battle if you don't gain anything by winning’.

Its also embarrassing when a small minority of women make a big thing about being able to do something as well as the men - and then fail

Who said that? Speak for yourself. I was and still am to an extent, a trained competitive athlete. Admittedly my best finish in a race was second overall - inc the men. I race to beat people. I'm not interested in appearing feminine or toilet faculties and i if i can demoralise someone in beating them once so i have a psychological advantage over them in future races, i will do so

I mainly raced for the category win, but if a man tried to take me on, i can and will beat him in a sprint finish. That's the point in racing, and judging from my female competitors, this is not an unusual attitude. There are women far more talented and stronger than me - ironically in running, my problem was always carrying too much muscle and building it too easily. Because muscle weight becomes a disadvantage in endurance.

I get the impression there are a lot of people around don't understand the purposes and effects of training, both physical and mental, th effect of different builds on physique, and the difference between those with some physical ability and those without ie responders and non responders.

However since the argument is that women are physically too weak to be on the front line, why wouldn't you compare their physical performance to men to make a point?

A comparison is fine, as long as it is to men who meet infantry standards not men in general.

LtEveDallas I really don't understand your problems with peeing into a bottle. Without going into detail, its something i can do in all sorts of positions inc lying down although if given the choice like most humans i would use a bush. And women can crouch when men cant. What do you think you do during an Ironman?

I carried the weight in the SAS Challenge in Wales and to be frank, its not that hard. That was on 35 miles mainly flat running a week, two hard sessions, no hill training - I wouldn't even gp out hill walking. Yet i was able to carry a weighted rucksack on my back up and over mountains on rough terrain. Some of the candidates stopped because they got too tired, too hot or sprained their ankles. All men i think.

You seem unaware of different physical types. Sprinters are far more muscular inc the upper body because of the dive needed from the arms than endurance runners. This also applies to female sprinters. I really think the army must be getting pretty feeble, because mst successful female athletes i know would just laugh at some of the things you've said, then get in with it.

The peeing excuse is just fucking pathetic. As if in a combat situation you wouldn't manage, or would bother about a bit if damp (no man has ever overspilled/filled), esp in a hot climate. Admittedly in the Arctic you'd be damn careful!

Meditrina often get male army and ex army racing triathlons and running races. Still beat them. Some of them are just damned slow, some are ok but rarely are they up there winning. Usually if you do something lime push on a hill, they groan and fall back, because theyve already been going at their mhr to keep up with you.

I'm sure you do. But that's not important as that's not what the infantry do. They're not trained athletes, they're fit soldiers and the requirements are different.

So it is things like the CFT, designed to test the bodily strengths that are required for the job, that matter.

there don't seem to be any real reasons not to offer competition for these roles to all eligible candidates, female or male. It doesn't matter whether many women make the grade or not as long as they are given the same opportunities to train, it will level out.

I am puzzling over comments from much further down the thread about 'nature', what is natural about modern warfare anyway?

we used to think it was against nature for women to read or experience sexual pleasure without a man or to choose not to have children

Melonade - I don't know why you are pushing this point, but if you read my post again, I was talking about a specific set of circumstances - an OP, in a lying down position (not able to move) with eyes on (and not taken off) for a protracted period of time. It's not just the peeing (although you do seem fixated on that) but the circumstances around it - an OP is a very dangerous point to be in. If you are discovered 'eyes on' the target you will be killed. You cannot move from the prone position until you are ready to be extracted. You cannot give yourself away, whether that is by movement or by smell. It is part of a Recce Soliders bread and butter and would be more difficult for a female - I never said impossible. Constant banging on about your own achievements, outside of the military, in a competition you have prepared for, that is nothing like the reality of war/combat/insurgent ops is also 'fucking pathetic' to me.

Meditrina often get male army and ex army racing triathlons and running races. Still beat them. Some of them are just damned slow, some are ok but rarely are they up there winning

I really think the army must be getting pretty feeble, because mst successful female athletes i know would just laugh at some of the things you've said, then get in with it

Are you racing in combat boots, combat clothing, helmet, carrying a weapon, bergan etc? If not then why are you comparing it to a battlefield situation? There are no Nike's on the battlefield.

Rather rude to call them feeble when you don't know what they actually have to do.

I'm pusing this point because I'm right and you know it LtEveDallas

btw keep your heart rate down...

I know a number of women (my age, so in their 40s) who were put off joining the armed forces because they wouldn't have been allowed to do the stuff they wanted to do (fly jets and whatnot). Which is a shame, because as LtEve and women I know IRL can tell you, there are lots of opportunities for men and women in the forces.

I wonder if fewer girls are dissuaded these days?

No I don't 'know it' Melonade.

Do you understand what an OP is?
Have you been in one?
Do you understand why the Army uses them?
Do you understand how important they are and the training that goes into manning them?

Could you explain the above to me.

How do you stop nosy cows (as in bovines, not women!) from giving you away when you're undercover in an OP?

In terms of population norms, men may be fitter/stronger than women, but we don't fill our armed forces from randomly selected members of the population against their will. There is a set standard and people choose to apply. A well-prepared and motivated female who wants to be in the army will almost certainly beat a unprepared man who doesn't. Therefore, it makes sense to base the standard of suitability for combat on ability to meet that standard, rather than something as arbitrary as gender. The arguments about peeing in a bottle etc are valid practical concerns but they are certainly not insurmountable.

Food Johnny. You scatter it away from the area that you are going to be lying up in, and then get in it before they finish.

Cows are sheep are dangerous (Cows are Curious, Sheep are Scared is one of the first things a Recce Soldier is taught!) so you have to have a plan

Thank you, LtEve :)

Women who join the forces should have to fight alongside their male counterparts and I for one have no problem with this latest initiative.

I wouldn't ave thought female soldiers would have had a problem with this.

Sorry if I'm repeating anything thats been said already, not RTFT.

I was in the forces, I did the same training as everyone else & very little allowances were made with regards to physical training etc.

The reasons we were given at the time, by Officers etc, were...

That carrying heavy backpacks etc damaged a woman's pelvis etc & could affect her ability to have children later on.

That male soldiers would protect female colleagues, on 'instinct' and could put themselves at risk.

Other issues, include periods, pregnancy, rape being used to imtimidate (of course men can be raped too) issues of modesty, changing & washing in close proximity. One of them gave the example of a female soldier being injured & a male colleague having to change her sanitary protection...

In some ways, I wonder if the PC brigade have shot themselves in the foot. 'Employers' are required to provide male & female toilets etc - everything has to accomodate women, which is very difficult to maintain in high pressure environments.

Women who join the forces should have to fight alongside their male counterparts

They do.