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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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10% of NHS budget is spent on t2 diabetes vast majority is self inflicted, aibu to think they should contribute?

355 replies

Lauranda · 06/05/2014 14:09

Its estimated that the cost will go up 17% by 2020. Something needs to change or the NHS will collapse.

Maybe make people that are overweight pay something towards their treatment would in courage people to eat better and exercise more.

OP posts:
MistressDeeCee · 07/05/2014 18:45

OwlCapone yes, thats also true. Its still 'sitting' as opposed to getting up and out walking.

The level to which some have become more and more stationary is just worrying. All sorts of defensive reasons are given for not getting off the backside and doing at least some exercise. Im not judging, just wish more would take care of their health as well as they take care of other people, and their cars/possessions. We all want to feel better.

I hate the gym. & dont much like exercising. I exercise at home, even when I dont feel like exercising, I do it. Even if it means watching tv whilst jumping on rebounder or using dumbells. Im not a dieter in particular and Im not against junk food in moderation. I eat pretty plain food doesnt have to be expensive healthy food (sillylassI can't afford the MN healthy dietGrin ) Still think there's too much temptation out there though and that doesn't help matters at all, and unless ill or with joint problems etc there's no excuse for not exercising. & perhaps reducing portion sizes (which makes me weep).

MistressDeeCee · 07/05/2014 18:46

Im also not sure vast majority of T2 diabetes is self-inflicted either

Lemiserableoldgimmer · 07/05/2014 18:50

I just wonder what it is specifically about our culture that results in so much over weight. The Japanese, Fins, Danes and Norweigans also live in highly industrialised countries where most people travel by car sand have access to fast food, but they have much, much lower rates of obesity than the uk.

MaidOfStars · 07/05/2014 18:54

Im also not sure vast majority of T2 diabetes is self-inflicted either

The majority of type 2 diabetes is associated with obesity (fact). The majority of obesity is self-inflicted (but not always a straightforward relationship). Whether you can link those two statements to come up with yours, it's not necessarily logical.

Sillylass79 · 07/05/2014 19:00

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

MistressDeeCee · 07/05/2014 19:03

MaidOfStars thanks; said I wasn't sure as I know of no conclusive studies and I do not know the ins & outs of diabetes medically. Although I do feel people are in denial even where obesity is self-inflicted. Then again who is going to say I am obese because I eat too much.a medical reason is almost always given; mostly reasons around emotional link with food/eating...although that is a medical reason in itself, in a way. Yep, difficult to link statements

LackaDAISYcal · 07/05/2014 19:10

because we have been fed the line, by the government and food producers that fat is bad for us, and have essentially replaced it with sugary refined carbs in our diets instead. Low fat, aspartamine laden food is not good for the health of our children, yet I get told off for giving my DS full fat unsweetened greek yogurt with blueberries in his lunch box as it's not within the government's healthy eating guideline, yet nothing is said about fruit winders or cereal bars Hmm

LackaDAISYcal · 07/05/2014 19:17

The main risk factors for T2 diabetes are genetics and ethnicity.

dawndonnaagain · 07/05/2014 19:18

LesMis
I do, to some extent hear what you are saying. I'm a bit touchy today, my lovely, slim, tall, healthy eating stepmother was found dead in her bathroom two years ago. She'd been there for a few days. Diabetic Coma from the T2 diabetes she had.
What I'm trying to say is that some of the more judgemental people on here should give people a bit of thought, a bit of time, but no, I imagine they think all junkies should pull themselves together, all alcoholics should, etc. FFS folks, yep, sometimes it is the sufferers fault but look at the whole picture.

Sirzy · 07/05/2014 19:28

I really don't believe any diet that involves food cooked more or less from scratch causes obesity

That depends on how much they are eating though. Even 'good' foods can lead to obesity if eaten in the wrong quantities. Some potions (especially for children) are very big and then with the added in idea that many have that you must clear your plate it is easy to see how some end up overeating even if it is on 'good' food

MaidOfStars · 07/05/2014 19:29

The main risk factors for T2 diabetes are genetics and ethnicity

I don't think that's true. Both UK and US public health bodies as well as interest groups cite obesity as the main risk factor.

Scousadelic · 07/05/2014 19:49

Here are the risk factors for T2 diabetes as listed by Diabetes UK. The reason obesity is focussed on is that it is one of the few things than can be targeted as most of the risks are genetic

Helpys · 07/05/2014 19:55

There's a special exemption for diabetes I think. So the patient doesn't pay prescription charges? I think that particularly a charges can be capped with a prepay certificate and as a large percentage of T2 sufferers are charge exempt anyway it's not unreasonable to expect them to pay the heavily subsidised prescription charge.

FryOneFatManic · 07/05/2014 21:32

But the bottom line is that the MASSIVE INCREASE in type 2 diabetes in the under 50's in particular is strongly linked with the MASSIVE INCREASE in obesity in this population.

Yes, they are linked. BUT, that does NOT mean that one causes the other.

Both of these could be symptoms of something else.

MaidOfStars · 07/05/2014 21:50

Yes, they are linked. BUT, that does NOT mean that one causes the other

But there are well-studied and completely plausible biological mechanisms that show how one (being fat) can cause the other (insulin resistance).

Sure, they might be independent results from an unknown base cause but that's not the most parsimonious of conclusions.

DinoSnores · 07/05/2014 22:01

fryone, I can send you a copy of my these if you like! There are a couple of very clear links between obesity and insulin resistance.\

I quote:

1.3 Pathogenesis of insulin resistance
There are at least two currently prevailing hypotheses for the pathogenesis of insulin resistance. These are not mutually exclusive and in many respects probably complementary.

1.3.1 White adipose tissue inflammation
It is well recognised that obesity affects the metabolic and endocrine functions of white adipose tissue. The subsequent release of fatty acids, hormones and proinflammatory molecules are thought to result in complications, such as insulin resistance and T2DM. This can be seen in infiltration of adipose tissue by the increased number of macrophages and other inflammatory cell types seen in obesity with the subsequent activation of inflammatory pathways21,22 (Figure 1).

This response is believed to depend upon the production of chemotactic factors by adipocytes and stromovascular cell types. The chemotaxins are released in response to metabolic stress, including mitochondrial dysfunction, endoplasmic reticulum (ER) stress, and the production of reactive oxygen species (ROS). Ultimately adipocyte stress appears to lead to cell death, with rupture of the plasma membrane, dilatation of the endoplasmic reticulum, and release of cell debris into the extracellular space. This differs from normal apoptosis, when cell constituents are packaged into inflammation-suppressive bodies. A significant component of the inflammatory response involves macrophages surrounding these dead or dying cells to ‘mop up’ cell debris23.

Subsequent release of cytokines, such as TNF-?, monocyte chemotactic protein-1 (MCP-1) and interleukin-1 (IL-1), then cause white adipose tissue endocrine dysfunction, impaired muscular glucose disposal, impaired pancreatic beta cell function and cell regeneration, and reduced suppression of hepatic glucose production.

1.3.2 The ‘overflow’ hypothesis
The other theory proposes that the capacity of adipocytes to accommodate all the triglyceride generated in states of sustained positive energy balance through a combination of hypertrophy and hyperplasia is ‘finite’ and that sustained positive energy balance ultimately leads to adipocyte dysfunction and ‘lipid overflow’ to other sites such as the liver, skeletal muscle, and even pancreatic ?-cells (Figure 2)24,25,26. Obesity, a state in which the capacity of adipose tissue to store surplus energy as triglyceride is eventually exceeded, is the most common cause for ectopic lipid accumulation (‘the ‘overflow’ hypothesis’).

Triglyceride accumulation in the liver and skeletal muscle can be precisely quantified by magnetic resonance spectroscopy and has been convincingly shown to correlate very tightly with insulin resistance (r ? 0.6-0.7)27. While triglyceride itself is not thought to cause insulin resistance, accumulation of more reactive lipid species, such as diacylglycerol and ceramide, in ‘ectopic’ sites, such as the liver and skeletal muscle, activates a range of serine kinases (e.g. Protein kinase C theta type (PKC?) and c-Jun N-terminal kinases (JNK)) triggering increased phosphorylation of insulin receptor substrate 1 (IRS-1) on serine residues, which then inhibits insulin receptor kinase phosphorylation of IRS-1 on critical tyrosine sites required for phosphatidylinositol 3-kinase (P13K) activation, ultimately inhibiting insulin stimulated glucose uptake3.

Adipose tissue dysfunction is likely to lead to excess lipid flux to liver and muscle, but lipid accumulation in these sites may also be a consequence of impaired lipid oxidation or disposal. Since fatty acid oxidation primarily takes place within mitochondria, defects in mitochondrial function are likely to lead to lipid accumulation. This is consistent with the finding of lipodystrophy in patients with some mitochondrial diseases, such as in multiple symmetric lipomatosis where multiple large subcutaneous lipomas are associated with mutations in mitochondrial DNA28.

There is considerable support for this hypothesis from a number of human and murine studies, demonstrating mitochondrial abnormalities, in both insulin-resistant pre-diabetic and diabetic states, and the potential role of mitochondrial dysfunction in ectopic fat deposition. These include ex vivo morphological and biochemical analyses of muscle biopsies demonstrating smaller mitochondria in diabetic individuals, a finding also seen in a number of myopathies known to result in mitochondrial dysfunction29, reduced mitochondrial density of young, lean, insulin resistant offspring of parents with T2DM30, significantly reduced activity of nicotinamide adenine dinucleotide (NADH) oxidase indicating reduced mitochondrial electron transport chain activity in obese and diabetic volunteers31, reduced functional capacity and number of subsarcolemmal mitochondria in diabetic and obese volunteers32, and decreased expression of genes involved in oxidative phosphorylation or mitochondrial metabolism in diabetic muscle33,34,35,36. This has also been demonstrated in vivo by magnetic resonance spectroscopy studies, showing reduced mitochondrial oxidation and phosphorylation in elderly insulin-resistant volunteers37, reduced mitochondrial phosphorylation in insulin-resistant offspring of parents with T2DM38, and impaired mitochondrial function as measured by phosphocreatine (PCr) recovery half-time after exercise39,40 and adenosine triphosphate (ATP) flux41 in patients with T2DM.

References available on request!

DinoSnores · 07/05/2014 22:02

Anyway, the TL;DR summary is:

  1. obesity causes inflammation, this causes insulin resistance
  1. excess calorie intake overwhelms the fat storage capacity of the fat cells, so fat overflows to muscle, liver etc, causing insulin resistance
Lauranda · 07/05/2014 22:16

This thread just shows the ignorance concerning diabetes and trying to ignore well proven cause - eating too much and not moving enough.

If it was largely due to ethnicity / genetics we would not be seeing the endemic rise.

OP posts:
DinoSnores · 07/05/2014 22:24

But 80% of weight is genetics! The problem is that we live in an obesogenic environment for the first time in human civilisation so all these genes cause their bad effects.

Watch this. Professor Sir Steve O'Rahilly is a world expert on obesity and diabetes and speaks very well on it:

LackaDAISYcal · 07/05/2014 22:33

Not ignore it Lauranda, just accept that it is a risk factor and not a cause. There are plenty of fat/obese people who have no insulin resistance or type2 diabetes. If it was down to being obese, then surel ALL obese people would have type 2.

Get off your high horse and stop being so sanctimonious about this issue.

LackaDAISYcal · 07/05/2014 22:33

and this thread is showing your ignorance towards other posters.

Lauranda · 07/05/2014 22:34

I wish I had an hour to spare watching it.

Why have people all of a sudden started to get fat if it's genetic? Is it beyond the control of the 64% of UK population that are now overweight / obese to become a healthy weight?

OP posts:
Lauranda · 07/05/2014 22:35

If it was down to being obese, then surel ALL obese people would have type 2.

What a silly statement!

OP posts:
DinoSnores · 07/05/2014 22:36

winklewoman, I missed your comment earlier and just noticed it just now. If you have 50 minutes, watch the Youtube video above. It really explains things very, very well as to why people are fatter now than they were.

It comes down to things like brain chemistry (your hypothalamus, designed for times of feast and famine, will try to get you back to your heaviest weight in preparation for a famine that never comes) or to societal change (less home cooking, supermarkets full of choices, less vigorous manual labour/housework, bigger portion sizes), to name just a couple.

An odd example: obese people (speaking very generally, of course) just move less, even fidget less. Their metabolism as measured will be higher because they have a higher body weight, but do they move less because they are lazy or is it actually because their bodies preserve energy more?

It really annoys me that HCPs like lauranda ignore the huge body (no pun intended!) of medical evidence that supports us and ignore the underlying issues. It is an awful lot more complex that 'eat less, move more'!

DinoSnores · 07/05/2014 22:39

lauranda, please watch the lecture as it will answer your question (which I have done to some degree in my post to winklewoman.

As for T2DM being due to being obese, a huge amount of it is for the reasons I gave above. However, there is also a fascinating population of what we call the "healthy obese", who can be massively obese yet not have the metabolic complications.

The theory there is that they just have a huge capacity for subcutaneous fat. They look really fat and weight an awful lot, but they don't have fat in the wrong places (as in muscle, liver, heart, pancreas) so they don't get insulin resistance.

There is a lot of research going into this population, precisely because they are metabolically so interesting.