Many women have a very low opinion of men

[greenwinter]

As a feminist, I sometimes get told that I have a very low opinion of men, I don't. I think men are (mostly) intelligent human beings who are perfectly capable of behaving well and doing housework and childcare well.

But some women make constant excuses for men, and in doing so, I think don't realise that they actually have a very low opinion of men. For example, saying that men:

• Just don't see mess the same way as women do (as if they haven't got eyes or a brain like us)
  
• Have difficulty understanding verbal communication (funny how that is only ever the case with their partners communication)
  
• Just can't multi task like women can
  

In short, these excuses for men paint men as half blind, incapable and stupid individuals. I think men are much more capable than this, and I think that women should stop making excuses for men.

[fascicle]

Louise1956
I think most feminists do have a low opinion of men.

Out of interest, are you including male feminists in your generalisation?

[leedsgirl231]

I'm just sick of the feminists that are constantly saying "all men are rapist pigs". THEY have the low opinion of men. its quite hurtful to the women who have lovely DPs who aren't a rapist.

[TereseaGreen]

Which feminists have you met that call men pigs leedsgirls231? I am a feminist and love, respect and value my husband, my son, my male friends? I hate inequality,objectification, rape myths and people who lack in moral and ethical fortitude.

Please do not call us "the feminists". It is patronising and rude.

[LoonvanBoon]

I've never come across any feminists saying that all men are "rapist pigs", leedsgirl - where do you see / hear this?

Louise, any particular reason for thinking that how much one cares about housework is down to "nature"? I know loads of men & women who don't conform to this at all. I've also seen (on MN) cases where the man in a relationship seems very concerned indeed that the housework is done, but still appears to expect his wife/partner to take more responsibility for it. So are we then back to the "men are naturally selfish" generalisation?

[lessonsintightropes]

Loon you're a perfect example of someone taking some incidents (which are probably fairly isolated in terms of numbers across the general population) and wildly generalising that men are usually unwilling to do housework and therefore selfish.

Have I misinterpreted you, or did you mean to try and make this point?

[LoonvanBoon]

Yes, you've misinterpreted me, lessons - or maybe I didn't express myself well! I certainly wasn't trying to generalise at all from my own experience.

I was taking issue with louise, who said upthread that in her experience a) the person in a relationship who cares most about the housework does most of it & b) that that person is usually a woman. Louise then went on to say that in her view this is down to "nature", not social conditioning.

I don't dispute the fact that most women do more housework than their male partners, since that seems to be shown clearly by survey after survey. But I was questioning the idea that this is because most women are "naturally" - genetically predisposed - to care more about having a clean & tidy house.

So I was simply pointing out that there are many exceptions to both of louise's propositions & asking how, given her view that it's all down to nature, she explains cases where b) is true but a) isn't. Some women do explain that in terms of men being "naturally" selfish - I've heard that in RL & on MN.

Personally I don't think men are either naturally averse to housework or naturally selfish (any more than women, anyway) & I do think, when I hear / read about men who behave selfishly, that they're choosing to behave in that way, either because of early social conditioning or because they're being allowed to get away with not doing their fair share. In other words, I agree with the points being made in the OP.

[LoonvanBoon]

And like you, lessons - just saw your post above - my DH, male friends & relatives are pretty uniformly lovely & definitely do their fair share.

[CabbagesAndKings]

I totally agree with you OP

The reason I am apparently so 'hard on' or 'demanding' in my expectations of men, is precisely because I am sick of this 'men are crap, they can't do XYZ' attitude. I'm lucky enough to have a wonderful husband and great male role models in my life, men who are/were capable of working, childrearing, and running a household, while treating others with respect and equality.

It's not actually that hard.

[lessonsintightropes]

Loon - ah fair enough, thanks for clarifying.

Both DH and I are reasonably tidy, but it's a standing joke that I could never have been in a relationship with our Best Man (with whom DH lived for 6 years) because he's such a neat-freak. I think Louise should meet him!

[Lovecat]

Gosh, Louise1956 (did you travel from there today?), perhaps you should educate us feminists on what the "many more important things there are in the world" are that we should be worried about

It's not a huge thing in itself, no, but its a dripdripdrip effect that becomes all pervasive and affects the way that we all look at the world - and, handily enough for most men, lets them off with the shitwork. Plenty of posters have mentioned the adverts that imply men are useless and women are the only ones capable of shopping/cooking/cleaning (I've yet to see the hoover that's vaginally operated). It all contributes to the culture we live in, and it's damaging. That, to me, is worth getting bothered about.

[Thurlow]

YY, lessons

What really fucks me off about this entire subject is the number of women who really do hate men and extrapolate one shitty relationship to the entire gender and it makes me pretty angry. And also read misogyny into situations where it doesn't really exist

I am more depressed about the general belief on predominantly female forums like MN that the majority of men are just wankers who are trying to find ways to cheat on you, belittle you and turn you into their home skivvy with no respect for you at all, than I am bothered by the 'men are useless' generalisation.

[christinawilliams]

I totally agree - people should not generalize based on one only example.

[christinawilliams]

I totally agree - people should not generalize based on one only example.

[VestalVirgin]

Thing is, it benefits men to be treated like babies.
It does not benefit women that men manage to paint us as stupid, because they actually do not give us jobs because they tell each other that women are stupid.

So no, it is not the same.

And as a feminist, I have made the experience that many men actually do not want women to have a high opinion of their ability to: behave like a decent human being, do childcare, do household chores ... et cetera.
Many men hate feminists and just love the women who think them incapable of controlling themselves or doing an equal share of work.

[corythatwas]

it is precisely because I have a high opinion of men that I so often find myself in the ltb camp on relationship threads

given that my experience tells me that the world is full of men capable of behaving like mature, civilised adults, why should anyone settle for the pathetic specimen you find on so many threads? or make excuses because "they are only men, you can't expect too much"? yes, you bloody well can. yes, you bloody well should.

suggesting anything else is an insult to all the many fine, upstanding men I know: my father, my FIL, my three brothers, countless other relatives, countless friends, my husband and (I hope) my son...

(fwiw dh does more housework than I do because he cares more. marginally)

[AdjustableWench]

I don't have a low opinion of all men, but I have a fairly low opinion of those men who appear to be entirely unaware that they benefit enormously from continuing gender inequality.

[m0therofdragons]

There's a "that's not my husband" book doing the rounds on fb. I saw it and had to bite my tongue. Clearly my friends think it's hilarious but my dh is amazing. We are equals and both have strengths and weaknesses. Too many women have low opinions of men. If someone regularly tells you you're shit then you stop bothering.

[TheManaha]

Old thread but bored of all the eu thread so going to answer.
I sometimes do have a low opinion of men because I believe some men are only brave when it comes to women like say today was turning into a road and a man pulled out I beeped and he scream at me calling m3 a can't and all sorts now do you think if I was male he would be so gangster to act like that it really wasn't even a big deal

[TheManaha]

Calling me a cunt
God dam auto correct