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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think that councils that don't help homeless people until they are formally evicted are basically state sanctioning theft?

46 replies

WooWooOwl · 25/04/2014 16:44

It seems so wrong to me that councils can do this, both to people that need housing and to landlords who may not be getting paid what they are owed.

Why do they need to wait until the last possible moment before giving people deposit loans or emergency housing? What difference does it make to them when they are going to have to help in the end anyway?

It can make a huge difference to landlords who could be losing hundreds of pounds in rent if someone who's being evicted chooses not to pay, and it wastes money and court time when they have to go to such lengths to get back their own property when they have done everything legally already. And those months of stress are not something the tenant needs either.

AIBU to think councils should be obliged to sort out emergency housing or deposit money as soon as a tenancy has ended? And if they won't, AIBU to think that the police should assist landlords whose properties are being wrongfully occupied and who are having money stolen from them when they have to put up with a non paying tenant in the same way they would assist anyone else who was a victim of theft?

OP posts:
WooWooOwl · 25/04/2014 19:00

Landlords getting their property back isn't the only issue, it's a whole host of things that I've already talked about that create and perpetuate these problems.

Even with the limited amount of housing we have available in comparison to the size of the population, there has got to be a more efficient way of councils handling housing that would benefit both landlords and tenants.

OP posts:
ReallyTired · 25/04/2014 19:06

Only offering help to a tenant who has been formally evicted is pretty shit for the tenant as well as the landlord. It means that they end up with county court judgment against them. They may well be chased with balifs in their new property for the next five years. Having a county court judgement agaisnt you makes it impossible ever to get a mortgage or a career in finance.

A lot of tenants find hard to take out another private rental because they do not have a desposit until their orginal desposit is returned. I feel that councils should have short term loans to facilate people into to private housing.

Many landlords will not take housing benefit tenants becuase its easy to get tenants who are less hassle.

"Housing benefit does not go directly to the landlord as we pay benefits in cash, not kind - it is up to the claimant to budget properly and sepnd thier money - would you like your employer paying directly to your landlord/mortgage company?"

Lets get this straight. Housing benefit is charity and is not earned money.
Housing benefit is money that is given for purpose. I think its perfectly fair and sensible for the housing benefit to be paid direct to the landlord. Money that earnt through employment is a person's own money.

TheHappyMonkey · 25/04/2014 19:06

But to be fair, you can't think of a more efficient way to do it. Neither can I.
I don't mean to be shitty about it, it just really gets my goat when landlords say this, because we have some of the most insecure tenancies in Europe. All the power is with the landlords. We can get our properties back without the tenant having broken any rules, as long as we serve the right notice we don't have to have a reason, we can just evict them. Yes it can take a few months, but we are guaranteed to get the property back. We can pick and choose who we offer a tenancy to. We can pick what rent we want to charge and whether we are prepared to accept housing benefit.
Before I became a landlord I was advised by many sources not to do it unless I had enough in the bank to cover 6 months rent at any time, to allow for gaps between tenants or non-paying tenants.
I just don't think we need to make it any easier for landlords to evict people, it really isn't that hard at the moment.

MoonHare · 25/04/2014 19:13

Council's usually advise tenants to remain until an eviction notice is obtained by the landlord because it gives extra time for the tenant to find alternative rented accommodation and for the Council to plan the allocation of their own temporary accommodation.

It isn't breaking the law for a tenant to remain in a property until eviction and it isn't theft.

In the majority of cases where applicants present as homeless upon receipt of a s21 notice they will have found alternative accommodation before the end of the eviction process. This is an efficient use of social housing resources.

There are not nearly enough homes for everyone who needs one. Resources must be managed. It's not a nice experience for anyone involved but it is the current reality.

So, yeah, YABU.

MoonHare · 25/04/2014 19:15

Being served with an eviction notice does not mean the tenant has a CCJ against them.

scott2609 · 25/04/2014 19:16

I work as a legal housing adviser, primarily with homelessness cases. This will be a long post, apologies.

Simply put, the reason councils advise this is because it otherwise means that they will be paying for costly emergency accommodation, usually bed and breakfast. It also gives the authority more time to make enquiries as to whether an applicant is actually owed a duty for any assistance under the Housing Act 1996. Trust me, they don't drag out their enquiries for no good reason- they're bloody inundated and homelessness rates are increasing at a terrifying level at the moment.

I have previously, however, successfully submitted a review of the decision that a tenant was intentionally homeless by leaving after the notice expiry, but before the bailiff's warrant. You can only be intentionally homeless from a property that it both 'available' and 'reasonable to occupy' in law, and I made the case that the financial burden placed on the tenant from the associated court costs and the risk of a CCJ made it unreasonable to continue to occupy. I doubt it would stand with most authorities though, there needs to be a good old bit of High Court case law on the matter I feel!

Only certain groups of people aren't entitled to emergency accommodation or any housing/ financial assistance from the local authority, and it's simply the case that many tenants aren't ever owed this duty. Subsequently, they have no options but to stay where they are until the execution of the bailiff's warrant because they do not have the means to find alternative accommodation. Homeless applications are lengthy, and pretty grueling on the part of the applicant.

As always, I want to clear up the myth that rent arrears= intentional homelessness. Not always the case, depends entirely on whether the accrual of arrears was a deliberate act or omission. Redundancy is a good example of when arrears often accrue, but the tenant isn't found IH.

The council absolutely do not provide emergency or long-term accommodation to IH families with children, but social services often pick up the tab instead. Sometimes, the poor bastards have their children taken into emergency foster care while they become street homeless or sofa surf.

Most people making homeless application, in my experience, are doing so because the landlord is selling or because they want the property back, and not for rent arrears/ other breach of tenancy.

I'm sure it's just the way you've expressed yourself rather than not knowing the law, but it's entirely wrong to say that a property is being 'wrongfully occupied' beyond the notice seeking possession expiry. It's not. An assured shorthold tenant has a clear right under the Housing Act 1988 to remain in the accommodation until the execution of a bailiff's warrant. You may not like it, but I quite agree with TheHappyMonkey in saying that as a landlord, you take a calculated risk, and unfortunately, sometimes it ends up being a massive fuck up.

That said, I am very much aware as to how devastating it is for landlord when they do take a chance, are as sensible as possible, and it still goes wrong. It's alright if you've got no mortgage or enough savings to keep the mortgage paid, but this is frequently not the case, and it can sometimes leave the landlord at risk of possession proceedings too.

However, my feeling is that beyond any fixed term (so the first 6 months if you allow a rolling contract beyond that) landlords have a very simply and straightforward way of obtaining possession, and that the UK has some of the most lenient laws about security of tenure in Europe.

Also, did you attend the possession hearing and request a money judgement? That way, the tenant has a court order in place to pay you the sums due, including court costs. I appreciate that you're not getting your rental income for the time-being, but it does mean you can ultimately pursue the money due to you.

Theincidental · 25/04/2014 19:17

In my local authority area when you have been served with a section 21 you can apply for housing and get a mid range banding. When you are in the last 4 weeks of tenancy they increase your banding to a higher need.

Mine also negotiate with landlords to keep paying or supporting the tenant to pay their rent so as to avoid financial hardship on any side. It also helps to give the tenant more time to find alternative housing.

I'd say they have a reasonable balance on everyone's interests. BUT, my local authority area is not under as much pressure as say a south east or London authority as they have more housing stock available because there is less need. The area still needs massively more social housing, but it's nowhere near as bad as other locations.

You might have to move a considerable distance 20-40 miles to get a house as there is very little in the villages, but it is possible to get housed relatively quickly.

There are so many things wrong with social housing and private landlords, I almost don't know where to begin, but I have to praise my local authority for taking a more humane approach and for having the resources to do so.

scott2609 · 25/04/2014 19:44

Sorry, I meant to put that only certain groups of people are entitled to assistance, not aren't.

Glad to hear your authority is taking this approach Theincidental. I'm in the SE and there's one decent authority in close proximity to my location, but they are out there. Usually have understanding managers who have perhaps worked on the charity side of homelessness advice previously. There are also some vile authorities, one whom I worked for in homelessness, and it was a daily soul-destroying experience.

As an example, I was today informed by a local authority that there isn't any reason to believe that a street homeless 21 year old chap in remission from testicular cancer is a 'priority need' for assistance or emergency accommodation. Soon put a fucking stop to that.

An 18 year old pregnant female with learning difficulties also had her emergency accommodation placement in a drug den B&B cancelled, rendering her the responsibility or either social services or a mate's sofa, because she turned up two hours late for a meeting. She is too frightened to challenge them even though we've tried to convince her that the law is absolutely on her side here.

I see the most depressing daily injustices and very rarely any 'suspect' or fraudulent cases. Yet you'd think that everybody was getting a council house because they get pregnant or they're foreign.

I do always harp on about homelessness and I'm sure it bores people to tears, but I try and make people as informed of their rights and dispel other people's common misconceptions as much as I can.

ReallyTired · 25/04/2014 19:56

"Being served with an eviction notice does not mean the tenant has a CCJ against them."

If they can't cover the landlord's legal costs then they will end up with a CCJ. In order to get someone evicted you have to go to court. The court will award a landlord costs as well as the eviction order. In theory a landlord has the right to recover the costs of using a ballif against a tenant. Most housing benefits tenants do not have the means to pay a 5K legal bill and end up with a CCJ against them.

A tenants desposit should be a desposit protection scheme. I would like councils to provide a temporary loan to cover the desposit. The money in the desposit protection scheme could be passed over to the new landlord and the tenant would only need a short term loan.

scott2609 · 25/04/2014 20:16

Yes, ReallyTired is right that you only end up with a CCJ if you request that the court allows you to pay the costs in installments, which you of course have to do if you're poor.

However, I'm not sure I've ever seen a possession case come close to 5K! Average costs are £150-£300, probably more in London though, and District Judges have a huge amount of discretion to determine whether proposed costs are 'reasonable' and order who is liable to pay them. Still a huge amount of money for people though, many of whom aren't losing their home through any fault of their own.

And don't get me started on mortgage possession being taken out of scope for Legal Help. I'm seeing a lot of homeowners who have been made redundant over the past few years who are no longer entitled to free legal advice and representation when their lender seeks possession. With that advice and representation, you are far, far more likely to remain in your home.

SoonToBeSix · 25/04/2014 20:44

Really tired housing benefit is not charity.

Sparrowlegs248 · 25/04/2014 20:56

Tenants have a legal right to occupy until a bailiff turns up.

If the tenant claims HB and is in arrears of two months, it can be paid to the landlord - there are others reason too.

Councils do not have anywhere near enough proprties/money/time to help everyone, which is why they have to prioritse.

Landlords should have insurance to protect themselves against this sort of thing. If there are large arrears they can serve a section 8 notice giving two weeks then apply to the court. Much quicker. Sadly most landlords (that i come accross) don't have a clue what they are doing.

Sparrowlegs248 · 25/04/2014 20:57

Indeed court costs don't amount to 5000!!

WooWooOwl · 25/04/2014 21:07

Scott, I'm not in a situation where I am currently having to deal with this issue, I'm just thinking generally because I think more could be done to help people on both sides of the arrangement.

OP posts:
Sparrowlegs248 · 25/04/2014 21:18

Scott - we had medical training a few weeks ago and were told that a cancer sufferer would cease to be priority 3 months after chemo ended. Shocked didn't cover it.

PrudenceH · 25/04/2014 21:32

But why does all housing benefit not go directly to the LandLord?

Surely this should be something that should be happening all over the country not just depend on which council you are with

My HB is paid directly to the council. I never have the money in my hands/bank account and I think that is the way it should be

SaucyJack · 25/04/2014 21:43

Why do you hate poor people so much WooWoo?

Poverty isn't a crime.

OhMrGove · 25/04/2014 21:46

This is one of main reasons that as a landlord I don't let to DSS tenants

WooWooOwl · 25/04/2014 22:04

Saucy, how does this thread make you think I hate poor people. What a ridiculous and completely irrelevant comment Confused

OP posts:
WooWooOwl · 25/04/2014 22:08

It's the reason I don't let to HB claimants as well OhMyGove, which is why I think the whole thing should be changed so that HB claimants had more choice about where to live, councils had more property available for people that need it, and landlords would have more protection from the few claimants that spoil it for the majority.

OP posts:
ReallyTired · 25/04/2014 22:21

"However, I'm not sure I've ever seen a possession case come close to 5K! Average costs are £150-£300, probably more in London though, and District Judges have a huge amount of discretion to determine whether proposed costs are 'reasonable' and order who is liable to pay them. Still a huge amount of money for people though, many of whom aren't losing their home through any fault of their own.
"

Those average costs you quote are for a periodic tenancy rather than an assured tenancy.

When I evicted a tenant I was awarded 5K eight years ago. That was partly for damage to the property, unpaid rent as well as legal expenses.

I think you are naive about the costs of eviction. Evicting someone from their home is not a small claims court matter. It is much easier to end a rolling periodic tenancy with a section 21 notice (ie. you do not have to prove the tenant has done anything wrong) than an assured tenancy where the tenant might have 12 months left. To evict someone before their assured tenancy has ended is harder as you you have to prove that they have broken their tenancy agreement. For example they have to be 60 days in rent arrears before you can evict them for non payment of rent

If the tenant is really uncooperative then it becomes very expensive. Often there is quite a wait for the case to come to court (typically 8 to 12 weeks) during this time rent arrears accumulate. Often the tenant owes a lot of rent once they are evicted.

If the landlord needs legal advice/ representation then the costs quickly rack up. Its not just court fees but solitior fees. Proper proceedure has to be followed. One tiny mistakes and you will not get your property back. If a landlord needs baliffs to physically turn up then that is another cost again. The landlord has a right to apply to the court for his costs to be paid.

Why else do you think that landlords have legal insurance?

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