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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To not accommodate a request by a female Muslim never to be in work "alone" with any male colleague?

651 replies

LibertyPrints · 22/04/2014 22:48

"Sarah" has worked with our company since December. We have 12 staff (some of whom are part time) across 2 sites. All staff work between the 2 sites. They are retail outlets.

Sarah is Muslim and has recently contacted me to ask if I can ensure she is not ever scheduled to be alone with any male colleague at either site stating this is to do with her religious beliefs.

The manager is male and 3 staff are male. Different staff have different skill levels and they are scheduled where they are best utilised on any given day/week and so that all shifts are pretty equally shared out. It is not practical to agree to this.

For clarity I have no issue with making adjustments for her where I can. For example she asked at interview if she could reduce her lunch hour by varying amounts and then take that extra time out when she wanted to pray at varying times of the day. Even though we don't normally allow breaks to be taken in this way I agreed willingly.

I feel really awkward saying no but it's really far from ideal. AIBU to think if she can't expect this from us?

OP posts:
Bearandcub · 23/04/2014 02:29

Reasonable adjustments do not alter the job role.

I think this is an unworkable adjustment given the staffing group you have.

GarlicAprilShowers · 23/04/2014 03:10

making such a request just because she has a jealous husband - My concern was that her religion, if followed to the letter, does say she mustn't be alone with any male who isn't a family member. A controlling male relative, therefore, can order her to follow this injunction and inflict the recommended punishment (beating) on her if she flouts it.

I realise there's no commercial imperative on an employer to be bothered about this but, as a supporter of women, I would try to see that I wasn't facilitating an oppressive man by either causing her to lose her job or making her vulnerable to punishment. It may well be impossible here, as there might be no way to resolve it without 'giving in' and so compromising other employees' rights. But I'd seek informed advice before being all gung-ho about it - as Liberty has said she will.

Roshbegosh · 23/04/2014 03:42

You need to delete this thread and seek advice from an employment lawyer.

Nestabee · 23/04/2014 05:41

I don't think a chaperone would work.

Given that the manager is male, I would say that it would be impossible shuffling shifts around to suit this request. Can you not point this out to her and show her the staffing roster/shift patterns/lunch break patterns etc

claraschu · 23/04/2014 06:00

If my religion stipulated that I couldn't be alone with a black person, a gay person or a Jewish person would so many of you be so accommodating? Is this actually any more reasonable?

StealthPolarBear · 23/04/2014 06:01

OP, please get this thread deleted. You've made a couple of comments (which I agree with) that could be misinterpreted if it ever got as far as tribunal.

Original poster
LibertyPrints · 23/04/2014 07:46

Thank you all very much for your posts. I really appreciate it. I will (on your advice) now report my own thread to ask for it to be deleted. I will update in AIBU though.

OP posts:
sashh · 23/04/2014 07:55

Can you tell her to bring a chaperone? I know that would be a pain in terms of H and S, security etc.

Tell her you will give her advance notice of shifts and if she is alone with a male then if she can swap shifts (without disruption) then that's fine, but run it past you.

Investigate bringing a chaperone to work. Or ask other female staff if they would be willing to chaperone, at your employees expense, not yours.

As long as you investigate this and try to accommodate her then I think legally that is all you can do.

YouAreMyFavouriteWasteOfTime · 23/04/2014 08:04

it sounds like you have handled the prayer side of her requests well. IMO the right thing to do is to take her request seriously and look at can it be done, bearing in mind the business and other staff.

personally if I were a male colleague, I would find it insulting that another colleague did not want to be alone with me. its a very odd sexualisation of the workplace.

the chaperone is a very good idea. is there any other role she can perform where her request can be met?

I have used ACAS guidelines for other employment matters and found them very helpful. you need to be very careful to follow procedures correctly and they were a bit daunting to start with but at the end of the day they did seem sensible and aimed to achieve fairness for all parties.

FunkyBoldRibena · 23/04/2014 08:28

The only way to address this without being taken to a tribunal is to work through with her if it is workable or not. Of course, taking into consideration if you are a man being in the same room as her makes it pretty unworkable from the get go. I would not recommend a chaperone at all, you do not want someone stood there in your shops all day just doing nothing.

Remember if you do dismiss it and she does take you to a tribunal, you will not get your costs and hours wasted back, even if you won. And you might not win.

An hour with her looking at the practicalities would be well spent IMHO.

BackOnlyBriefly · 23/04/2014 08:51

Is it really that risky to act like a reasonable employer nowadays? Surely this must be exaggeration?

Grennie · 23/04/2014 08:59

Lots of people are commenting here saying well my Muslim female staff don't have an issue with this. But Islam is the overall branch of religion like Christianity is. Just as there are Catholics, Protestants, Methodists etc, there are Sunnis, Shias, etc. Each have their own requirements of believers.

I think to avoid discrimination law you will have to show that you looked at this request and did not just dismiss it. If it is unworkable with existing staff, you might have to show why a chaperone would not be acceptable. Hurt feelings of existing staff wont matter and tbh I think it is a bit pathetic if someone feels hurt by a Muslim women wanting this.

If you cant reasonably incorporate her request, then say no. You can always ring ACAS for free advice.

FunkyBoldRibena · 23/04/2014 09:00

Is it really that risky to act like a reasonable employer nowadays? Surely this must be exaggeration?

If it is one of the protected characteristics, then it would be prudent to sit down and discuss how it would/wouldn't work, yes.

If it did come to a tribunal and the OP has the notes of how they tried to make it work - looks alot better than a rejection with no exploration of the issue.

As the manager is male; my first question would be how does the employee expect to ever have a one to one meeting with their manager? As this is fundamental to their employment and development, if they are saying they cannot meet with the manager without someone else present, which is not appropriate, then they need to consider their options.

Grennie · 23/04/2014 09:00

backonlybriefly - No it is not an exageration. You would be surprised the ridiculous situations that can lead to a tribunal. Big employers can absorb the costs, small employers can not and so have to be more careful.

FunkyBoldRibena · 23/04/2014 09:01

Plus, surely a reasonable employer WOULD sit down and discuss with the employee the options?

WhosLookingAfterCourtney · 23/04/2014 09:06

Yanbu, I haven't rtft, but I don't think anyone should be pandering to sexist superstitions in the workplace.

Andrewofgg · 23/04/2014 09:08

Yours is I am sure a well-run business where manager and managee regularly meet to review progress, or, if need be, to criticise. That manager might in the future be a male. How would she cope?

I suppose she might have a chaperone although you might have issues about discussing company business in front of an outsider.

But if she does well one day she might herself be managing male managees and they would have every right to complain if a third party was present while they were meeting their manager, perhaps for a bollocking!

It wont do. This is not the ME. Tell her No and mean it. If you lose her thats JTB.

Grennie · 23/04/2014 09:11

WhosLooking - Legally employers have to pander to sexist superstitions.

flowery · 23/04/2014 09:15

AIBU really isn't a good place to seek advice about this sort of specialist employment law area. There's a lot of misinformation here and no chance of anyone without decent knowledge being able to identify which posts are sensible/accurate and which are not. OP I urge you to take proper professional advice, this is a risky area.

DinosaurFarmer · 23/04/2014 09:38

What, so if you agree to her request and then what happens if some of your staff leave/go on maternity leave etc - would you only be able to replace them with another female?? As obviously the more male members of staff the higher the possibility of her working with them and sometimes alone. Completely ridiculous 'request'!!

Andrewofgg · 23/04/2014 09:38

flowery spot on and although a legal eagle myself I am one of those who should have stayed out of it. OP get some specialist advice.

CocktailQueen · 23/04/2014 09:39

So she's worked for you for a few months and is only now bringing this up?? No. She is being daft. YANBU.

candycoatedwaterdrops · 23/04/2014 09:51

Out of interest, does proximity to males make a difference if a Muslim woman is married or not? I only ask because, in Judaism, religious women will not shake the hand of a man, regardless of her marital status - obviously she can touch her own husband and male children. If the rules have always been this way in her religion, I'd wonder why she suddenly changed her mind about being alone with males.

Nestabee · 23/04/2014 09:52

I think the chaperone idea is a BAD idea - I wouldn't like to work with someone who had a chaperone!! Hmm that would not be a good situation for the other employees!

caruthers · 23/04/2014 09:58

The whole idea is laughable.

If she can't do her job find a way to let her go, and employ someone who can do the job.