To not accommodate a request by a female Muslim never to be in work "alone" with any male colleague?

[LibertyPrints]

"Sarah" has worked with our company since December. We have 12 staff (some of whom are part time) across 2 sites. All staff work between the 2 sites. They are retail outlets.

Sarah is Muslim and has recently contacted me to ask if I can ensure she is not ever scheduled to be alone with any male colleague at either site stating this is to do with her religious beliefs.

The manager is male and 3 staff are male. Different staff have different skill levels and they are scheduled where they are best utilised on any given day/week and so that all shifts are pretty equally shared out. It is not practical to agree to this.

For clarity I have no issue with making adjustments for her where I can. For example she asked at interview if she could reduce her lunch hour by varying amounts and then take that extra time out when she wanted to pray at varying times of the day. Even though we don't normally allow breaks to be taken in this way I agreed willingly.

I feel really awkward saying no but it's really far from ideal. AIBU to think if she can't expect this from us?

Nursery, I answered that exact question in two posts:

2:21:52 & 22:36:19

(Can't figure out c&p properly on here, sorry)

*22:21:52, sorry.

Grennie tribunals can and do make awards for hurt feelings. You are assuming the hurt feelings of an aggrieved man would be treated as of no consequence (faith trumps anti- sexism?)
Maybe you are right but you are wrong to say hurt feelings aren't grounds for an award.

hurt feelings are taken into consideration when there is material discrimination as well.

grennie "hurt feelings"can be the basis of a claim. For example a homophobic co-worker's or boss' nasty comments to a gay colleague or a man going on about being worried about being alone with a gay person is enough.

We won't agree but treating a person differently for no reason other than their sex is sexist.

Compensation for hurt feelings.

www.adviceguide.org.uk/wales/work_w/work_problems_at_work_e/et_employment_tribunals_from_29_july_2013_e/et_valuing_a_claim_e/et_compensation_for_discrimination_e/et60_discrimination_calculating_compensation_for_injury_to_feelings.htm

YABU, I would try and help her, bless her.

"Sorry monica it was flowery who was happy that a man could make a similar request."

I beg your pardon? Please do not misquote me in that way.

I made it very very clear that at no point on this thread, or any thread have I or will I give my personal opinion on this subject.

As I have said several times, if someone, anyone, makes a request based on genuine religious grounds, an employer is obliged to consider the request properly and make the adjustment if reasonably practicable. I don't know of any religion that would have any requirement for a man not to be left alone with a woman so I think your "Sam" scenario is unlikely in the extreme.

Flowery, misquoting seems to be a current theme.

I have been continually misquoted, quoted out of context and had quotes entirely made up and attributed to me over the last couple of days (on this thread and another one I was on).

flowery some Orthodox Jewish men think it wrong to be in the company of an unrelated (especially an unamrried) adult woman.

In most working environments that would be impossible too. Think lifts!

There is a link in the thread to a case of a male student asking to be taught outwith the presence of women. It wasn't acceded to but not a hypothetical scenario.

To be honest it's all pretty irrelevant what anyone thinks. It seems as though 'Sarah' has been unfairly maligned here though.

Employee makes request to change working conditions.

Employer considers request, discusses with employee and makes decision based on the needs of the business and merits of the request. You do not make the decision based on the employees protected characteristics. If reasonable adjustment can't be made, then that is that.

Decision and evidence is given formally.

For the most part, that will be it over. No other employees know about the request and decision (if it's a no).

The next stage would not be a tribunal, it would be an appeal and grievance. Any good employment lawyer would be able to tell 'Sarah' there was no case for tribunal as long as the business had behaved correctly.

Plus it's a big jump to assume 'Sarah' would go to a tribunal if the request was declined.

Equally, a bloke who felt discriminated against wouldn't go to a tribunal, there are many stages before that to address working problems which a tribunal would expect an employee to go through first.

Are there and rules on this sort of thing (ie work making concessions to religious/cultural observances)?

I've been in meetings with men of other faiths - the ones you wouldn't 'expect' to did shake my hand, accepted a cup of coffee from my hands and spoke to me like an equal. The ones you may not wouldn't necessarily expect couldn't/wouldn't take a cup from the hand of the assistant who wasn't of the same religion.

I'm wondering about homophobia, religious intollerance etc. I'm not saying that all religious types are like this, but what if someones religion/culture 'green lighted' abuse of a homosexual (in some countries it is punishable by prison/death penalty remember) co-worker or someone of another faith 'I can't work on that project with him/her because he/she is gay/insert other religion here'.

People need to be guided by what is reasonable, fair and above all respectful to co-workers.

I've been wondering what would happen if I were to move to UAE, Israel, etc and what I would find really hard and what I would be offended by. However, I would be a 'newcomer' so would adapt my behaviour and actions, and not really expect changes made for me. Maybe my children would want concessions made for them if they grew up there?

If we are this 'multicultural society' it needa to work both ways surely? Make concessions but also be realistic in respect that cuturally we do not encourage/make women/girls wear a veil/scarf or seperate the sexes. We have laws against not hiring on the basis of sex (age, religion, race...) - what if someones religion meant that he couldn't hire a female assistant (or female boss hire a male assistant)?

there are many stages before that to address working problems which a tribunal would expect an employee to go through first.

yes but if a (small) employer does not follow the correct process (even if this does not change the outcome) they loose at tribunal for failing to follow the correct process.

I think the ACAS guidelines and employment law can be daunting for a small employer and lead to misunderstandings about who has what specific rights. I have used the ACAS info a couple of times and found it very useful but it did take a couple of days to get my head around it. the law does seem fair to both sides if you take the time to understand the details and make sure you understand both the employers and employees rights. but i am concerned about how realistic it is for all small business owners - whose company may not require academic skills - to comply with this legislation.

... the fact that some think hurt feelings might be grounds, shows that you are coming from a position of relative privilege

Oh come off it, Grennie - I realise folk sometimes try to twist situtions in pursuit of their own agenda, but you surely can't be unaware of the many claims which have been attempted for exactly that. I've experienced it several times myself, and while the potential climants backed down when professionally advised that they didn't stand a cat in hell's chance, it didn't stop them muttering about racism forever afterwards in an attempt to divert attention from their own part in the matter

Few of us like hearing the word "no" and unfortunately a few folk, when denied something they want, carry on like spolied children and grasp at any straw available; "privilege" doesn't necessarily come into it - it's just human nature

Let me add that I'm not saying OP's employee will do this - granted she's already been pretty demanding and may, but equally she may not. I'm simply commenting on a general principle, on the basis of personal experience

Youare, an employee would struggle to get to a tribunal had they not followed the request/complaint - appeal - grievance steps first.

People need to be guided by what is reasonable, fair and above all respectful to co-workers

Exactly, Nicename ... and this seems to be all that the law very reasonably requires. It really isn't rocket science, but sadly problems will always crop up when folk, whether employer or employee, try it on

^slithytove Fri 25-Apr-14 12:41:03
Youare, an employee would struggle to get to a tribunal had they not followed the request/complaint - appeal - grievance steps first.^

the employer would have to have an appropriate process for the employee to follow. otherwise the employer would be a fault.

They would have deal with the request/complaint, appeal and grievances correctly yes. Which isn't that hard to do. There is a wealth of information and step by step leaflets, some of which have been posted on this thread.

The employee would also be expected to use the early conciliation process.

Going to a tribunal is not as quick and easy as some have made it seem and would certainly not be the next step in this process.

All the OP has to do is respond to this request following the proper steps at this stage.

And it is not for the employer to suggest that an employee puts in a grievance or goes to a tribunal. All they have to do is follow due process when it occurs.

Grennie is wrong about not being able to claim for hurt feelings. You can and in circumstances it's perfectly fair. If Sarah makes her request and it were turned down or agreed to and it causes few if any issues but if other workers started talking about " bloody trouble maker or worse "bloody Muslim trouble maker" she has a right to make a claim if employer doesn't nip it in the bud. And that's fair. There's a world of difference between not agreeing with her view point and being rude and aggressive towards her and making her working life unpleasant.

If I worked with Sarah we would simply have to agree to be polite and co-operative and our views on faith and sexism would remain our own and not up for discussion. I've no right to lecture her in the workplace about the sexism of her chosen religion and likewise she has no right to call me to task about my godlessness or be rude about any other personal characteristics such as my sexuality or clothes which might offend her religious beliefs.

My sister is a big boss in the states and some of the 'claims' made against employers would make your hair curl. Enmployers are terrified of being branded 'x, y or z-ist' and hand over dollars like confetti rather than go to a tribunal.

slithy - I have taken a sexual discrimination case so understand the mechanics. you might find it a simple process to set up but I am saying based on my experience as an employer, I am not convinced all employers will find it within their capabilities.

"It is not practical and could be discrimination against the male workers if you did it."

^^
That.

This is not Saudi Arabia last time I checked.