to resent well off 60+ people that get free unlimited bus travel

[SuzzieScotland]

I can't afford a car, so I walk, cycle or bus everywhere.

The bus costs almost a pound a mile so it is seen as a treat for me.

A yearly ticket is 1000 or if your a student you can buy a £12 bus I'd card every year and get a yearly ticket that costs 750. This seams far too expensive.

Yet I see many pensioners who run two cars using the bus to get into town or to the airport totally free despite being well off. I think their would be uproar if a 20 pound admin fee a year was applied to these bus passes. In London a year ticket is 3k but anyone over 60 gets unlimited tube and bus despite 100000s of them still in full time work.

Just seams like the young and poor are getting a very raw deal to win grey votes.

On the universal benefit thing, I think we need to be clear what we are talking about.

Are we talking about a perk, a nice little thank-you to hard working folk who have contributed a lot?

Or are we talking about a limited amount of money that the government can't spend twice, so once that £1.1bn has gone on this, it can't go on other things, such as University education, the NHS, etc?

If it's the first, it would be mean to pick on the free bus pass. Of course we value what older people have done during their lives. We should make it clear that we expect the state pension to remain at a decent level, and we should fight to protect our NHS which matters to everyone, but especially ppl living with chronic health conditions, who are often older.

If it's the second, we ought at least to realise that when we try to identify those in most need in our community, being old isn't automatically a sign that you are in need. Yes, being old brings extra cost. But older people have lower housing costs if they are homeowners, and they may also have good pensions. In those over 68, like those younger, there's a big variety. You could save that capital sum by restricting free bus travel and other similar benefits to those getting pension credit- and you could afford, in that case, to make the cut-off for pension credit itself more generous.

When I retire, I think I might prefer that money to be spent in the NHs, which is likely to mean a lot more to me over the years than universal free bus travel.

In London, children travel free up to 16. After that there are concessions for different groups, students etc.- too complicated to explain.

The disabled travel free. Also some of those on JSA or IS, again see website. And veterans.

As a result, there are lots of buses even outside of the rush hour. And TFL has a surplus in its budget.

If London can do it, why can't the rest of the country?

Suburban Not at all tempted by the £1 flat fee. I need 2 buses and a train to get into London. So that'd be £6. And an extra £2 every time I went out locally - to the shops, the library, to pick up my gcs from school. And how long till the flat fee went up?

This resentment against the older generation is becoming boring.

For all you know, 'poor' Mrs A and 'well off' Mrs B who are each entitled to the OAP travel pass may well have been equally well off earlier in life. Maybe Mrs A has lived well, taking lots of holidays, and spending her money on niceties while Mrs B has been frugal and saved. On the face of it, Mrs B may have more assets, but people prioritise differently. Or, Mrs A may be a widow who had a lovely lifestyle while her husband was alive, but hasn't worked herself for 40 years so understandably hasn't got a pension or assets. Whereas Mrs B may have worked right the way through.

There's often a lot more to a situation than what you see on the surface. And a lot of people are sick of being penalised because they've saved, or been frugal, or played by the rules.

It's a sad state of affairs to go around resenting the older generation because of a few perks they get

janey that's an issue with every kind of benefit, of course. But with working age benefits, most of us who currently work and don't get any benefits are happy to contribute our share of tax to make sure that ppl don't live in real need. I would have hoped older ppl would feel the same way about their contemporaries.

So many resentful people...

If whatever it is is an entitlement then that's what it is, available because the criteria have been reached.

I see this scenario as EXACTLY the same as free school meals. There are parents who can afford it but they are entitled just the same to claim it.

Why not? Why was all this angst and bile over what is an actual ENTITLEMENT? Why not use all that energy to challenge MPs expenses or something that is actually UNFAIR rather than impotently blethering about something that... just makes you sound very lame, a a bit mean.

I work hard, I can't afford to buy a property, can't afford children, can't afford a car and now can't even afford the bus. The state pension age keeps rising so I expect to be working into my 80s.

OP - resenting pensioners and wanting their free travel removed isn't going to improve your quality of life. There's always going to be someone with more than you, no doubt people who were prepared to make sacrifices in order to live in a fairly decent fashion. Envy isn't a life plan - which you need to get sorted if as you claim you are in employment and can't afford to get on the bus. .

I don't feel any resentment. I think it's sensible to ask if this particular £1.1bn is doing all the good it could do, if it were more carefully targeted.

I cannot understand why anyone would resent the older generation getting a free bus pass! Most of them have worked and contributed all their lives and often get to an age where they cannot drive or can no longer afford to run a car and many are not fit enough or have health problems that means they cannot cycle.
Well off pensioners have contributed and so they are entitled to the same benefit.
Its really mean spirited to resent they have something just because you don't!

Better to feel lucky you are still young and active. It won't last forever!

Indeed, Thymeout. Public transport is actually quite a complicated money-go-round.

If a large number of people use the buses (paid however), the company runs more services, so they're more frequent, therefore more convenient and cheaper. So more people chose to use the buses, so they become more profitable, need less subsidy and the local council may meet other aims like reduced road-traffic, fewer parking issues, fewer RTAs by elderly drivers and greater accessibility for some housing areas.

I've lived in a village where the cycle was going the other way. Buses were infrequent, more people got cars, so buses became more expensive and even less frequent. The village became unliveable in unless one had a car, and property prices slumped. Now everyone seems to have a car, and property prices have gone up again. And the council has had to widen the roads to take the extra car traffic.

The sums will be different in each area, it's not one-size-fits-all. But it's certainly not the simplistic "there's a fixed pot and it's just about money doled out" some people seem to imagine.

The sums will be different in each area, it's not one-size-fits-all. But it's certainly not the simplistic "there's a fixed pot and it's just about money doled out" some people seem to imagine

I think we do understand about more demand making the business stronger, but that applies to every business. You make the same argument about the NHS and it's services. Or libraries. It's still the case that the budget for this benefit comes from a fixed pot. To the extent that the bus companies make more money, or the subsidy changes, that comes from a different government budget.

So sorry, but I don't think we are being as financially naive as you would like to think

Should say "could make" and "its services". iPad typos, sorry.

Do you realise that subsidising the buses may reduce demand on the NHS, beastofburden?

I'm not saying it does in all cases, but in some areas it will.

Let's park this resentment argument. This thread is not about bashing pensioners, it's about wanting a system meet the needs of all.

Suburban: Not at all tempted by the £1 flat fee. I need 2 buses and a train to get into London. So that'd be £6. And an extra £2 every time I went out locally - to the shops, the library, to pick up my gcs from school. And how long till the flat fee went up?

I agree that for those who live in London and already have a fantastic deal on public transport (under-16s free? How amazing must that be?), not to mention clean, modern, frequent and reliable buses, the idea of paying wouldn't appeal.

And there are lots of buses and tubes because that's the best way to get around a large busy city.

Where I live we have the highest per capita car ownership in the country. Good, affordable and reliable public transport is never going to happen here.

I still think it would be good to ask pensioners for their views.

It's so easy to make sweeping assumptions about older people all having worked all their life, all having paid tax, all buying goods when they go shopping, all being unable to leave their house unless they have access to free public transport, and to accuse anyone of wanting to make the system more equitable of "resenting" the free bus pass or bashing pensioners.

I know my mum would want as many people as possible to benefit from affordable public transport.

One day the state pension will have to be means tested, and replaced with an income support arrangement.

Probably by around 2025.

Agree entirely with the above points about means testing discouraging frugality. What is the purpose of saving, paying into a pension etc if you would lose out on other benefits? I realise its a bit more complex than that, because no one in their right mind would forego paying into a good occupational pension just so they could claim a crappy means tested smidgen of a state pension. But the principle stands. And when you consider that gold plated occupational pensions are a thing of the past now, and that people have to pay more in and get less out, this principle is going to become increasingly significant I think.

Generally I think one of the results of the so called welfare system, the way it's gone over recent years, is that a large sector of the population have become wised up and aren't going to just play by the rules and do the sensible saving thing if they know they're likely to get shafted later on. We already see it with homeowners having to sell up to afford a bed in the same care home as joe bloggs who's pissed his income away on whatever, and spent his life renting. I suspect things are going to change as more and more people refuse to be sold down the river like this.

Suburban

The remedy is in your hands. As I said, way back upthread, Londoners have a good deal on freedom passes etc, because they voted in Ken Livingstone in the days of the GLC. When he wanted to introduce free travel for the elderly etc., my outer London (Conservative) borough wanted to opt out and ended up in a High Court battle, which fortunately they lost.

Even the Conservatives haven't attempted to get rid of it and Boris removed some of the time restrictions. But he put the fares up, when the figures showed that it wasn't necessary. Still a lot of people who don't use the buses, especially in tory voting outer London, so didn't have to worry about losing their vote.

The idea of removing the universal state pension horrifies me. I have paid into a private pension. With the state pension as well, I will be okay. Without the state pension, I will be in about the same position as if I had never contributed to a pension - poor. And I paid into my pension when money was very tight and I was living in damp bedsits.

I honestly think I would advise young people unless you are very well off, not to bother with a pension. Just have fun and to hell with saving for the future.

You have to a very good pension, to make it worth saving for, if the state pension is abolished. Most people don't have very good pensions.

thymeout where I live now, if you're going to vote for anyone other than the Tories you might as well roll your voting paper into a tube and stick it where the sun doesn't shine.

And I'm from London, so I remember the halcyon days of Ken and the GLC (sigh).