To wonder about Curley's wife

[Springheeled]

More to wonder whether Steinbeck is exploring sexism only to end up being actually sexist?
This is my billionth year of Of Mice and Men but it's the first one where I've thought Steinbeck is pandering to the old Madonna/ whore syndrome rather than exploring it. Maybe I've just had a funny year.

No I think her life/death is a symbol of sexism - all the other characters are representative of a certain kind of 'ism' too, are they not? I used to teacher in an inner city boys' school where the boys used to cheer when she got killed :( (when we watched the video). They perceived her as a whore who got what she deserved - some heated debates in the classroom I can tell you! It's a great novel though, so short and economical but so much can be extrapolated from it. I've taught it for years but I never really tire of it.

I came on to say almost exactly what Bauhaus said only less succinctly so I'll leave my contribution as - I agree entirely with Bauhaus

I always felt that she was merely just a plot device, a means to an end so to speak! I kinda felt like the fact that she was female was almost irrelevant, she didn't even have a name :(

I just think, ok her death is inevitable and that's established from the word go, but is having this woman who inadvertently and unwittingly ends up as the jailbait they all said she was just reinforcing the myth that it's supposed to be debunking?

Yy to the plot device. But it's a shame the plot device involves a woman being killed because she doesn't fit the mould she is supposed to.

I thought you meant racquel off corrie.

The whole novella is a protest - he doesn't offer any solutions, he justs tells you how it is/was for women, the old, the disabled etc

She wasn't supposed to have a name as a comment on sexism, it was to prove that she was only ever 'Curleys Wife' and didn't have her own identity. When she says to Lenny how Curley smashed up all her records and belongings it's to show how he's taken away the last of her own identity and she's so sad, bored and so lonely.

I felt for her, she never actually tried it on with anyone did she? She had to dress up that way to please her husband and all the other men thought she looked slutty. She just wandered around looking for conversation and company and everyone ignored her because a woman talking to men must be a whore and they didn't want to bother with her husband later on. She was such a sad, sad character

The fact that she didn't have a name is intrinsically linked to the fact that she is female extremepie! She was Curley's wife, property of her husband, to reflect the attitude towards women at the time.

I don't think Steinbeck was sexist. I think the 'reinforcing the myth' thing was intentional, because it wasn't a myth, and that's the problem. In that society women's sexuality brought nothing but trouble- not because it is bad in itself, but because that was what society was geared up for.

If you think about it, Lennie also 'reinforces a myth'- that mentally ill people are dangerous and don't have a place in society. Sadly, due to lack of care/support/understanding, this was no myth, it was the truth.

I've taught the book for years also, and I find it very depressing!

I think we're supposed to believe that she was having a relationship with Slim, actually. The good guy, her night in shining armour.

She certainly wasn't just a plot device.

Curley's Wife shagging Slim?? Nooooooooo! Slim is 'the prince of the ranch', he would never exploit a vulnerable young girl! Also taught this novella for years, never considered her anything other than a plot device, but I fight her corner every year as I think students perceive her, imo, as the 'jailbait' she is described as...in my students' eyes, George's opinion is gospel.

See, I think George is also a product of his society- they all are really- he sees her this way because he's been taught to.

Mine always feel sorry for her. I tend to split chapter 5 in two- we read the bit where she opens up to him, then we stop and do a bit of work on her- perhaps write a diary entry by her 'younger self' or a letter from her mother. Then next lesson we recap what we learnt about her- how she's vulnerable, isolated and lonely. Then we read the rest of the chapter and when Lennie snaps her neck they're horrified!

I don't think Slim exploits her. He's probably not much older than her. I think he truly feels something for her, but because of their positions in the society they live in, they can't actually be together so have to snatch illicit moments together.

I suppose I'm just sad that after over 25 years students STILL cheer her death and even after reading the letter say she's a 'slut'. Whereas they do all get the Crooks thing and the Lennie thing. I suppose it's more about society now than Steinbeck being a bit too subtle.

Like I say Springheeled, I've never experienced that. And I work in quite a rough tough school!

I think she is a brilliant character. Steinbeck wrote about her beautifully I think.

Lennie also 'reinforces a myth'- that mentally ill people are dangerous and don't have a place in society. Sadly, due to lack of care/support/understanding, this was no myth, it was the truth.

I didn't understand the view held by some that George is in any way a good protector of/companion for Lennie. There are occasions where he abuses his position in the relationship, and ultimately he does Lennie no favours at all.

Sorry, slightly off topic. Lenny and Curley's wife's are both tragic victims.

Fascicle, I think George was simply doing his best, but he was only human. He abused his position by shouting at him once in a while, which is awful, yes, but on the whole I think he was a decent guy. I think he does him a big favour at the end.

Lennie isn't mentally ill. He is intellectually impaired in some unspecified way.

The grabbing and holding, always following direct instructions would suggest a pretty severe learning disability.

Abbierhodes, thinking of Lennie as a child-like figure, George says things that an adult should never say to a child (I'd be better of without you etc). Sometime in the past we learn that George beat him up, and he is also capable of manipulating Lennie for his own ends, e.g. when he encourages him to fight Curley. Apart from that, George knows Lennie's character and weaknesses (stroking soft things) and essentially, history repeats itself with tragic consequences. George is supposed to be bright, but the strategies he teaches Lennie throughout the novel are poor (say this; don't say anything etc).

Curley smashes her records in the film/play. There is no mention of this in the novella. The play/film also cuts the line when she threatens Crooks.
My pupils tend to understand her a little, forgiving the make-up and the flirting, but the way she talks to Crooks makes her hate him.
One of my A*s suggested this year that, after her death, when Steinbeck talks about a moment remaining and being much much more than a moment, that it is his way of mourning her passing, because none of the other characters do.
I never thought of Steinbeck as sexist, merely reflecting sexism, as he does racism. However, then I read East Of Eden. The female lead in that is TERRIFYING. For balance, I read The Grapes of Wrath, which has wonderful examples of female strength in Ma and Roshasharon.

Fascicle, what 'strategies' would you have taught him? In that society, with the education that George would have had?

Halfwildingwoman, I've just realised I've never read any other Steinbeck! Shocking, I must rectify this immediately!

Not sure that I agree that George is "bright", not dumb either, just an ordinary working stiff.

The moments after the death of Curley's wife, like the description of Slim are weak aspects of the novel, when Steinbeck puts aside showing, and begins telling. It's as if he doesn't trust his own powers of storytelling so nips in and and instructs the reader how to interpret what's happened.

In the case of Curley's wife it's testament to the fact that his portrayal of her up to her death was not so clear as to make her victimhood evident, so he tells us to feel sorry for her. Had her character been more fully developed, he wouldn't have had to do this.

Abbier - I hadn't until this year! And was blown away. The Grapes of Wrath is wonderful. And stands out as a warning of the results of capitalism.