Question about gender change

[lougle]

If someone is making a transition to one gender from another, what does their sexuality relate to - their original gender, or their new one?

For instance, if a man is transitioning to become a woman, and is attracted to women, would that make them 'straight' or 'gay'?

If a woman is transitioning to become a man, and is attracted to women, would he then be 'straight' or 'gay'?

I'm likely to have to explain 'gender change' to my children, but it occurred to me that I really don't understand the 'gender' part of it at all.

I understand the physical processes and the medical timeline, etc. (ie. live as new gender for x period, medication, initial reassignment surgery, final reassignment surgery), but I don't understand how someone who has had gender reassignment would identify their sexuality.

I hope I haven't offended anyone - I may not have used the right terminology and may have been clumsy in the way I've asked the question.

There is SO much to what makes a female a female. And there as many ways of living as and dressing as and feeling female as there are females.

The way you behave does not make you female. Your biological body is or isn't female.

I would agree with the second point or rather I would say there are no ways of living or dressing or feeling female. Only patriarchal constructs which should be entirely separated from whether one is female or not, and certainly not used to determine femaleness. By making conformity with patriarchal constructs part of the determination of whether a person is a man or a woman, the patriarchal constructs are reified / become more powerful and embedded in our culture. This harms women.

Flora Actually, a lot of people self diagnose with Dyspraxia and dyslexia. And often get that accepted (so much so that the popular conception of what being dyspraxic is is quite different from the reality). And people with phantom limb pain have real pain, just not a real limb.

But that's by the by.

This is a debate which clearly still needs to be properly had, but in a non emotive way. Unfortunately it's difficult to be non emotive when you have been assaulted, and I suspect it's difficult to be non emotive when your personal reality is being challenged. Hence the consistent failures to communicate constructively. :(

kim That's kind of the discussion I've had with a gender psychiatrist. Almost word for word.

Not sure if that's a good thing or a bad thing...I hope good. But if I'm not understanding properly please tell me.

Levianne (also Flora) I'm very sorry if you felt I belittled you. I was not trying to draw a direct comparison between armpit hair and penises, I was making a lighthearted comment on things people will look at in changing rooms. I obviously misjudged it and I apologise.

Somebody recently upthread posted something saying that we wouldn't countenance other oppressions being co-opted in this way, and it made me think. I have a disability (inherited arthritis, which has damaged my joints). If someone able-bodied really honestly felt they were a disabled person, and went to huge expense and trouble to have surgery to damage their knees and hips and hands, and it made their life very difficult - well, that's up to them, and while I think they'd be nuts, it's their decision, doesn't hurt me, and if it makes them feel right in themselves that's great, and I hope they have a nice life. However, if an able-bodied person decided they were really disabled, and kept their able, perfectly healthy body, and still demanded access to disability services ahead of the queue from me because I have, IDK, real-disabled privilege, well, they can fuck right off. That's how I feel about this. If you want to join in, fine - you must really want it if you are doing something that will make your life so difficult and bring you down in the status stakes to our level. If you want to push ahead of the queue, when we who are already here have so little, and you have given up none of your privilege, and you are still in a position to tread all over me and hurt me, yeah, no.

Posy - ok, fair enough, and thanks.

kim I've already answered those questions upthread and on other threads where you have asked me this question. Feel free to get your bingo card out. I know you are not going to listen to this.

I think there are several different types of reasons why some people become trans, not just one type. However, the single common factor seems to be a lack of acceptance of their personality in their environment because of their non-conformity with gender expectations. I believe if people were loved and respected for who they were, regardless of their conformity with socially imposed gender roles, they would not be trans. I think this is especially so when gender roles are imposed by parents. These are the people who love you most in all the world (and I do believe that parents of gender non-conforming children love their children and are most often trying to help them navigate in a patriarchal, gender conforming society) and if they tell you from your earliest days that the things you want to do are not acceptable for your sex / tribe, then this imprints a message that there is something wrong with you and/or you must be a member of the other sex/tribe. Parents of trans kids often talk about "fitting in".

Some trans people are homosexual in a dangerously homophobic environment and need to live as the other sex to survive or have relationships (and in this respect it is notable that there is a high level of MtF transitioning in places like Iran). In these environments, there seems to be a high incidence of passing and low incidence of non-passing (as that would defeat the survival purpose).

I also think there are some people who are sexual fetishists and there are some, particularly young people, who think that this is rebellious and pushing gender boundaries. This is especially the case with young people who claim they are "genderfluid" and have male and female "shifts" (where female is associated with being ditzy and unfocussed or some other total bullshit).

No I don't think it is an act, other than for the sexual fetishists. I've said above that I think we need to destroy gender roles and expectations and that there needs to be protections for people who cannot survive in current society.

As for treatment, I don't know. Women struggle with hormone treatments throughout their post-pubertal lives. I now wish I had not relied on hormone-based contraception for so many years. I think it was bad for my health and for my well-being. I am at an age where HRT is something I need to start thinking about and it scares me. I have decided not to go down that route, at least for the time-being. I also know some men who are body builders and one regular (although not excessive) user of testosterone died at the age of 50 from a heart attack caused by hormone use. I am planning to counsel by DD to be very cautious about using hormones. We know so little about them. It concerns me that a person would be dependent on artificial hormone treatments for their whole lives, especially young people and children.

Are gay men transphobic if they refuse to sleep with people with vaginas? If so, where is all the outrage against them; I haven't seen any.

I've been following this thread and another one on cross-dressing on Relationships in the last week.

I agree with the above comment and also with comments by the posters on both threads - Offred, beachcomber on that one and
florafox and levianne on this.

Many others too, I just can't name them but they have articulated my views.

I find it deeply offensive that people are trying to negate the experiences of women and our desire not to have those we feel uncomfortable with, invading our spaces.

herc, when has already answered but with phantom limb pain, I agree the pain is real but of course the limb is not real. I think this is the same for most transpeople. The feelings are real but they don't represent reality. I think this is the same for any dysmorphia. Despite what some people claim (like bean in this thread), the law in the UK does not "recognise" that transwomen are women, it recognises that transwomen have dysmorphia and sets out some ways that is addressed to alleviate the dysmorphia.

I'd have no problem with "male" clothes! I've only stopped wearing them myself (better fabrics and better made than women's fashion, at least at my price level) because my ridiculous boobs (which I hate) won't fit in them any longer!

The few trans women I've met offline are as you say, and as you have presented yourself - on a journey, wanting to go as far as they can in having a body that presents as physically female. I'm the one on this thread that has been banging on about dicks in the changing room, and while I haven't had this conversation with any of the women I know (we don't have that kind of relationship, and I wouldn't bring it up first), if I imagined their actions, I suspect they would be pretty similar to yours - being careful on all sides, both for your own safety and for the comfort of others. (I don't know, though, as I haven't - and wouldn't - ask them.)

There are some very vocal trans women on twitter, however (I don't follow them, but they get constantly RT'd into my timeline as The Authentic Voice Of All Transwomen Everywhere, Always) are very much of the "I have a dick and not only am I keeping it, but if you don't agree it's a female body part, because I am female, then you are a transphobe". Which is exactly the kind of thing to put the absolute fear of god into me about what it might mean for women's space in the future.

kim I purposely kept my comments general because I don't want to make this about you. Any time I have asked you about your experience or where your feelings came from, you have shot me down and made it clear you don't want to talk about it. That's fair enough but I think in that case you should be careful about using yourself to demonstrate trans.

I would ask you where your feelings came from, why you don't feel comfortable being a gay man, how were you treated when you expressed gender non-conforming attributes as a child / at boarding school. I agree that it's not fair to make it all about you though.

kim are you really sure you've never heard the views that levianne is talking about? If you've heard of gendertrender / pretendbians / cathy brennan, how can you not have heard this view? It's all over twitter and online discourse and not just in the US, it's in the UK as well. The English transwoman who was imprisoned in Toronto not long ago espouses these views ("having my dick inside you is not the same as having a man's dick inside you"). You've talked about the "cotton ceiling" before, this is all part of the same issue.

Sorry, there is no such thing as male clothes. Or female clothes.

That really pisses me off, because it's a battle we won so recently. I will not be forced into wearing a skirt in the office again by anyone.

Twitter is great in some respects but it isn't a reliable representation of viewpoints. Not only does every extremist with an agenda get RTd into your TL, but those extremists gather a few followers and achieve an echo chamber effect so they begin to think not only that they are right but also that everyone else agrees with them.