Question about gender change

[lougle]

If someone is making a transition to one gender from another, what does their sexuality relate to - their original gender, or their new one?

For instance, if a man is transitioning to become a woman, and is attracted to women, would that make them 'straight' or 'gay'?

If a woman is transitioning to become a man, and is attracted to women, would he then be 'straight' or 'gay'?

I'm likely to have to explain 'gender change' to my children, but it occurred to me that I really don't understand the 'gender' part of it at all.

I understand the physical processes and the medical timeline, etc. (ie. live as new gender for x period, medication, initial reassignment surgery, final reassignment surgery), but I don't understand how someone who has had gender reassignment would identify their sexuality.

I hope I haven't offended anyone - I may not have used the right terminology and may have been clumsy in the way I've asked the question.

No.

Women born as females (cis women) are entitled to meet and exclude trans women and men.

A public body (for example, social services, the NHS, the government, a council) or an association (for example, a private members' club) is not allowed to exclude trans women from their definition of "women" UNLESS they have a good reason - so they can do so, but must justify it.

It is up to an individual private space as to whether they are willing to host an event which gives no good reason for exclusion. Some spaces would say that the Equalities Act reflects common decency and it would contravene their own policies to host such an event. Others will say that as the event has no obligations under the Equalities Act it doesn't matter.

If someone with a penis says that they are a girl, then they are a girl.

Now I'm confused. In what sense are we talking? Legally? Logically? Literally?

I certainly don’t ignore what women say. I am frustrated that for the nth time any conversation around Trans people turns into a mythical scenario where it seems cis women are under imagined attack from marauding gangs of trans women who have only transitioned (because of course that’s a piece of piss) in order to sit in swimming pool changing rooms waving their ‘rape sticks’ around. I am frustrated that people who plainly are not trans feel it’s ok to ‘explain’ how trans people are and feel. I am frustrated to read utterly patronising comments patting the trans woman on this thread on the head because she ‘makes the effort to ‘pass’ (FFS). I am frustrated that people on this thread think t’s ok to call trans women BLOKES because they still have a penis, no understanding there that it can take YEARS to get the ok for surgery (if they even want surgery). I am frustrated that many think it’s ok to have more than a passing interest in what is in other peoples pants. I am a cis woman, I have given birth to two cis women, I have myself been raped. I’m certainly not so privileged I don’t understand women’s fears. But you know what? It doesn’t stop me from understanding that some women are different from me and that that’s ok

Huge round of applause to tibbysmum Fantastic post!

And to the people that have accused me of being hysterical and bullying for expressing my fury and disgust at Transphobic attitudes, YOUR attitudes and YOUR world view goes against the Equalities Act 2010. postfossilshoes has summarized these laws very nicely.

Those laws are in place to protect Transsexual peoples right to dignity and respect. If a transwoman is excluded from female changing rooms that is not treating her with dignity or respect.

I think that the fear and confusion around Transexual stuff is HUGE. It is massively confusing too.

In our culture Transsexual is often viewed as a deviant discourse and this is what frightens people. The inability to perceive what is essentially a human being when the most base of factor is awry or in doubt or in a transient state is sadly the result of cultural conditioning. Agree with Grennie on this.

We have, in this argument, managed to reduce the transexual person down to the most rudimentary factor - what their genitals look like and are they acceptable to us? Do we indeed want to be in the same room as someone whose genitalia is incongruent?

It is unfortunate I think.

If someone with a penis says that they are a girl, then they are a girl.

Does this apply to other things as well? As in, 'If someone without a science degree says they are a scientist, then they are a scientist.'

I'm sorry, but this attempt to erase the reality of biological sex and replace it with subjective identification is absurd, and very damaging to women and girls, who are oppressed on the basis of their female biology, not identity.

The EA does not require a gender recognition certificate. It applies

if the person is proposing to undergo, is undergoing or has undergone a process (or part of a process) for the purpose of reassigning the person's sex by changing physiological or other attributes of sex

which is odd because the Gender Recognition Act talks about acquired gender, not sex.

However it is clear that the EA applies even to someone proposing to undergo something so, womble it seems that a person with a fully functioning penis and male hormone profile who claims to be a woman must be treated as a woman by organisations which are subject to the Equality Act unless an exception applies.

I don't have an inability to perceive transwomen as human beings, beanella. Stating that someone is male is not denying their humanity.

We have, in this argument, managed to reduce the transexual person down to the most rudimentary factor - what their genitals look like and are they acceptable to us? Do we indeed want to be in the same room as someone whose genitalia is incongruent?

Once again you are reducing the fears that women and girls have of being naked in an intimate space with strange males as a matter of their prejudice or hysteria.

We don't have some strange, irrational fear of male genitalia. We have a highly rational and very evidence-based fear of male violence.

Do we indeed want to be in the same room as someone whose genitalia is incongruent?

Incongruent with what?

Stating that someone is male is not denying their humanity.

Sorry donkey but Any GENUINE transsexual person who has travelled any significant distance in their transition, without any shadow of a doubt, feel that their humanity was being denied.

Gender Dysphoria is an extremely powerful condition that can result in significant mental health issues and suicide ideation.

Here is some more information about the biological factors that can result in Transexualism.

*Genetics

The androgen receptor (AR), also known as NR3C4, is activated by the binding of testosterone or dihydrotestosterone, where it plays a critical role in the forming of primary and secondary male sex characteristics. Hare et al. found that male-to-female transsexuals were found to have longer repetitions of the gene, which reduced its effectiveness at binding testosterone.[18]

A variant genotype for a gene called CYP17, which acts on the sex hormones pregnenolone and progesterone, has been found to be linked to female-to-male transsexualism but not MTF transsexualism. Most notably, the FTM subjects not only had the variant genotype more frequently, but had an allele distribution equivalent to male controls, unlike the female controls. The paper concluded that the loss of a female-specific CYP17 T -34C allele distribution pattern is associated with FtM transsexualism*

Incongruent with what?

With how they feel inside, the gender identity they present to the world, i.e dress, hair, mannerisms, social presentation etc.

I have always wondered if a transsexual should disclose to a new partner what they are.

Dress, hair, mannerisms and social presentation are social constructs that vary from time to time and place to place. How are internal subjective feelings connected to genitalia? How is genitalia connected to dress, mannerisms etc?

Kim, I do not hate trans people.

I object to the gender politics that trans activists are mainstreaming. Currently, trans activists are trying, and succeeding, in stopping women from meeting and organising together. Trans activists and their liberal feminist allies are trying to make it taboo for women to talk about female biology in the context of our own oppression. (One transwoman in the US has a high-profile campaign going to force all women's health centres not to use the words 'woman' or 'female' in when talking about female reproductive rights). They are mainstreaming the idea that a woman is nothing more than anyone who identifies with feminine gender stereotypes.

This agenda is deeply anti-feminist and anti-woman; it is a complete reversal of everything second-wave feminists fought for, when THEY mainstreamed the idea that there ought to be no 'socially constructed roles, behaviours, activities, and attributes that a given society considers appropriate for men and women' (The WHO definition of gender). I do not wish harm on trans people, but as someone who cares about the liberation of women, I will continue to resist this harmful and regressive ideology.

...women and girls, who are oppressed on the basis of their female biology, not identity.

I'm not sure this is always true. None of my previous employers have ever seen my genitals or demanded an ultrasound scan of my womb, but I have been paid less than male co-workers, and sexually harassed in the workplace. Likewise, the men who engage in street harassment don't do it on the basis of biology, they send it at those whom they perceive as women. The diet / beauty industry doesn't give a toss if you menstruate, it only cares that self-identified women are socially coerced into buying their products.

Oppression of women as a sex is rooted in prejudice against our biology, sure, but the manifestation of it in daily life is done purely on identity.

Posy what do you mean by the manifestation of it in daily life is done purely on identity?

I'm amazed by this suggestion that recognising that women and men are separate biological classes means you needs to see a person's genitals to determine if they are a man or a women. Secondary sex characteristics make it beyond easy to determine whether a person is a man or a woman in 99.99% of people, no matter what clothes they are wearing or whether they are wearing earrings, makeup, a wig or any other aspect of presentation foisted on women by patriarchal society.

On an individual basis, the manifestation of women's oppression begins with the words "it's a girl" and everything else follows from that. Except for the millions of missing girls for whom it begins in the womb when a child is selected for abortion based on her sex.

I have always wondered if a transsexual should disclose to a new partner what they are

How come? What has made you think about that?

Personally, I think for the purpose of getting intimate with someone on a long term basis and obviously fertility issues, then it makes sense. Even people that have fully transitioned and have had successful surgeries will have a few scars that, up close and personal, are spottable!

I had known my DH for about 6 months before he told me his history. I actually didn't believe him, i'm not sure why. 10 years on it still doesn't really make sense! I don't really think about it at al apart from at significant times, obviously fertility treatment, and when he has to have (infrequent) medical checks to make sure that his hormone levels are o.k I can't really resolve it in my mind. I'm glad. That is how it should be I suppose.

I had a pollyanna view of the world before I met him and thought everyone would be respectful and decent and understanding. That sadly hasn't been the case. Most people in our lives don't know. The few that do are supportive. Those that haven't been supportive and treated him at best like a freak show are no longer in our lives.

Fortunately, we tend to choose friends who are open, accepting, respectful people who would care more about who we are as people rather than what is in our underwear and whether it was created though surgical intervention or otherwise. I sometimes wonder what some of our friends would think if they new. DH has been on stag dos and blokes nights out and i wonder how people would react. I actually think the majority would be absolutely fine, because they KNOW him. It is generally the unknown that people are frightened of.

I would ask you, all you people who are worried about sharing a changing room with a transwomen who is pre-surgery.

Think of a woman you know, on the outer fringes of your social circle, someone you have known for a while. Someone in your office, at a baby group, in a club you go to, book group, whatever. Someone you like or feel warm towards.

Now imagine a group of you, including this women go to a spa for an afternoon.

This woman you are thinking of could be a transwoman. It is quite possible.

Are you going to reject her, exclude her, change your opinion of her because she is a transwoman?

Or are you going to be respectfully curious? (which is the best possible response I think)

As the parent of a young transitioning girl I have found much of this disussion quite upsetting.
My child is depressed suicidal and scared, she is worried about being rejected by the world. She finds going into toilets and changing rooms extremely stressful. The idea she is a threat to anyone is ridiculous. Her body upsets her sometimes she won't shower or bath because she can't look at it.

I hope when eventually I convince her that life is worth living she meets people who can accept her. I realise inevitably she will encounter prejudice and I will have to help her develop strategies to cope.

(One transwoman in the US has a high-profile campaign going to force all women's health centres not to use the words 'woman' or 'female' in when talking about female reproductive rights).

Donky I totally agree this is fucking stupid and ridiculous!! And Transgender men who stop taking hormones and get pregnant, and still want to be considered male!!

Fucking hell. :/

Beanella, there is no scientific evidence for transgenderism - it is a purely self-identified, subjective state. If there were some test for it, then there could be objective diagnostic criteria. This is the opposite of what trans activists want - they simply insist, 'I am X because I say I am X.' You yourself said just a paragraph before that it's all down to how a person 'feels' (and pointing out when material reality contradicts someone's feelings is apparently denying their humanity).

But your attempt to prove that there is some biological basis for liking dresses and make-up (or, alternatively, disliking them and preferring sports and short hair) just demonstrates how regressive genderism is. This is my main objection, what should be every woman's objection, to the ideology of genderism: THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS LADY-BRAIN. There is nothing in being a woman that suggests we innately prefer pink, or certain types of clothing, or being looked at, or 'feeling feminine' - as Flora noted, these are all cultural constructs - which is exactly what 'gender' is. Sex is real, gender is the social construct that says there are certain 'proper' ways for men and women to act and be.

Since the invention of science, men have used the fiction of 'lady-brain' to justify why women are suited to the tasks they would like us to do (nurturing, looking pretty, domestic shit-work) and keep us out of the areas they want to monopolise (politics, science, anything important and well-paid). Lady-brain is a devastatingly harmful idea to women, and trans politics (i.e., genderism) is dedicated to reifying it.