To be driven mad by how many people are utterly convinced by homeopathy?

[Wannabuyawatch]

I am just completely baffled by how many educated, clued up people I know, including family members and many close friends, that do not question homeopathy in any way. It is complete nonsense that bases its "science" on the memory of water?? You might as well wave your magic wand and say Hocus Pocus. Of course the placebo effect can be a cure in itself but not for children?? Even my brilliant pediatrician tries to give me homeopathy (probably bc she thinks it will calm me down rather than my children!!)
There is a mum at school whose son has horrendous allergies and asthma. She has taken him off all his inhalers as she wants to "cleanse his system" and only gives him homeopathy. Arrrgh. I see the little boy in tears every day in the spring as he can´t sleep and is exhausted due to his breathing.
My MIL insisted on giving their old dog who was in agony and riddled with cancer homeopathy instead of conventional medicine and god, did it suffer, why why??
Don´t know why but it drives me mad…such an irresponsible industry that suckers vulnerable people in and leads some to give homeopathy instead of conventional meds in dangerous situations.

"Kinesiology allergy testing"

I despair. Why in earth would you not see a dermatologist for a proper allergy test?

Do you felt he same way about people who go to church and believe god exists?

Or do you accept that people have faith in the things which work for them, despite the lack of scientific evidence that they are 'real'.

almondcake I couldn't understand why Gillian Mckeith's chlorophyll idea (not a theory) gained such currency. GCSE Biology or even GCSE science blows that one out of the water.

I myself pointed out that it couldn't work in the summer between GCSE and AS-levels, I believe.

Cote, in case it leaves a scientific imprint...

minifingers

YES! And I get upset about religiously-sanctioned child neglect and human suffering, too. See: Christian Science, children with epilepsy and autism treated with exorcism, and women who were forbidden terminations.

And don"t bloody dare claim I accept beliefs in sky beings as an excuse to cause physical suffering.

And don't, if you are a Creationist, try to justify it to be on grounds of faith. Because I consider that I have a right of reply and that "faith" (literally defined in the dictionary as believing in something just because, isn't it) doesn't mean you're entitled to interested silence.

Minifingers, unless people are using it to claim knowledge of the material world (creationists for example), I don't have an issue with people having supernatural or paranormal beliefs. Supernatural beliefs are outside of the scope of science and paranormal beliefs have no evidence to support them but have no evidence to dismiss them either.

I suppose something like the loch ness monster - there is no evidence to support it but it is not entirely impossible that a few of them are hiding in some underground watery cavern. It doesn't really matter if people believe in it.

Homeopathy is claiming that material reality operates in a way that is contrary to scientific evidence.

"Do you felt he same way about people who go to church and believe god exists?

Or do you accept that people have faith in the things which work for them, despite the lack of scientific evidence that they are 'real'."

I obviously cannot prove 100% that there it's no God. He might turn up tomorrow and I would have to change my mind on the matter. Because that's what rational people do when faced with overwhelming evidence. Homeopathy,however, can, and has been (repeatedly) shown not to work- and explanations have been found for some people's perceptions that it does. It's not that it works and we don't know how- it doesn!t work. And it's supporters are so closed minded that they refuse to accept the evidence.

There are RTC's proving that prayer doesn't work either, but I wouldn't be obnoxious enough to tell people they shouldn't do it and go round flapping the evidence in their faces to make the point.

What does that mean though, that prayer doesn't work? Surely prayer works as well as any other form of calming meditation?

It's also pretty unusual to go to a practitioner, describe your symptoms and for them to say "ah, yes, three Hail Marys, a Nunc Dimitis, a Grloria and the Collect for the 3rd Sunday in May and you'll be completely better. £50, please"

If people get better as a result of a prayer, it is considered a miracle. Praying for the sick is generally done to ask god to bring them comfort. How could you measure that reliably?

If homeopaths start saying , 'take this water, if you recover it will be a miracle and the vatican will be around to interview you, that will be £50,' I'd find homeopathy less worrying.

People using homeopathy and 'borrowing' from the language and terminology of medicine is dangerous. For example, up thread, someone reported that a homeopathy practitioner had "prescribed" them something, when in actuality they had been sold some bunkum and a sugar pill. This usage undermines the notion that 'prescribing' is reserved for an action that educated medical doctors do, which is dangerous for society as the use of language weakens the distinction between those who are suitably qualified, and those who are not.

Im open minded but i prefer my medicine to be based on science not something thats unlikely to cure me unless its the only option left.

There are RTC's proving that prayer doesn't work either, but I wouldn't be obnoxious enough to tell people they shouldn't do it and go round flapping the evidence in their faces to make the point.

Wouldn't be "obnoxious" or perhaps "would be too embarrassed"? Or, what, exactly?

I find it obnoxious that no-one intervened to save these children of devoutly religious parents before they died.

But yeah, we mustn't offend people's beliefs and tell them they're wrong. Oh no. As it happens, it's Saturday. Mind coming down my town centre and telling the evangelical theists that it's obnoxious to push bits of paper in people's faces, or does it only apply if the paper has actual evidence on it?

Oh good idea Tilly. Find an extremely rare example of extreme harm being caused by belief in prayer/homeopathy (and abuse/fraudulent intention) and present that smugly as a clincher for your argument.

In return I give you this, the facts about the number of deaths which arise directly from conventional medical treatment:
"In the United States an estimated 225,000 deaths per year have iatrogenic causes, with only heart disease and cancer causing more deaths.[1]" (from Wikipedia)

People generally turn to prayer and homeopathy when their needs haven't/can't be met by accepted medical practices. You should show some compassion and some humility - people's feelings about their bodies and their illnesses are complex and individual.

By the way - I don't believe in that either prayer or homeopathy work, but I like a good placebo and I dislike patronising twats who enjoy telling people how to think and feel.

I have a PhD in a scientific subject. I often surprise people because I either believe in, or believe in the possibility of ghosts, UFOs, ESP, karma, various forms of alternative medicine, fate, predicting the future, gnosis, cosmic ordering and conspiracy theories, and I have quite a few self-invented religious beliefs.

But I know homeopathy is bullshit.

UPDATE - I spoke to the allergy boy´s Mum at school yesterday -
"How is XXX and his allergies now that the pollen count it up?"
Well, he is suffering massively and is with the school nurse every day for his eyes and itching skin. He can´t sleep and is very nervous.
"So what are you giving him to make him more comfortable?"
Well he took so many nasty medicines when he was young (he is 6) that we are now cleansing him and treating him with homeopathy.
"But you do know that homeopathy is just water? Is it helping him?"
Well he is so sensitive that he believes that it is working.
(Arrrgh it clearly isn´t working…he is at the nurse every day!!!)
"Does he have any breathing problems?"
No, he has grown out of the asthma.
"OK, because obviously you would give him Ventolin if he had any trouble breathing right, it´s the only thing that would help him??"
Hmmm mumble mumble he is fine now…
So at least he has naturally grown out of the asthma, but still she should be giving him something for his discomfort, but it seems it isn´t a life-threatening situation.

Back to the debate - however much people can peddle their "I have a right to my beliefs" argument, people should look at the big picture which has been so well articulated throughout this thread. You should always question your beliefs if there is a greater detrimental issue at hand. Homeopathy DOES NOT work on a molecular level, it is false advertising. The homeopaths are LYING. They are selling it is a treatment, not a lifestyle, not a placebo, not a session on a kind counsellor´s sofa. I bet many many people have died because of this, and as one poster has said, one person dying is one too many. There has even been a cancer nurse on this thread attesting to this!! HELLO?? Surely that is reason enough to stop this fraudulent dangerous and far-too influential business reaching any more stupid, vulnerable or desperate people.

I bloody thank my lucky stars we live in a place and time where we have antibiotics, vaccinations, C-sections, and scientific knowledge!! Maybe I will start a "What organised religion has done to children over the years" thread and we can really get stuck in!!

Oh good idea Tilly. Find an extremely rare example of extreme harm being caused by belief in prayer/homeopathy (and abuse/fraudulent intention) and present that smugly as a clincher for your argument.

Wrong. I am presenting you with a direct comparison. You don't like it, then? You chose to bring up "people to go to church". If you apparently just mean normal people who lead normal lives, but go to church, then why on earth bring them up? Eh?

As for the rest of your post... blah blah I'm so tolerant, blah de blah support the poor underdog, blah de blah.

You think I'm a patronising twat. Good. You've evidently never had to deal with the "alternative" community much. All the alternative therapists I've met have had more of a God complex than most doctors, and so do their patients. And I know this, because I lived being the child of someone very strong-woo. I still have yet more relatives through marriage who are actually practitioners. Arrogant as hell.

I'm really lucky that as a child, my broken arm healed straight without medical attention, by the way.

I show compassion by donating to médecins sans frontiers Let's see, I already showed humility by challenging the beliefs I'd been brought up with, doing science GCSEs and A-levels,, and realising that the self-serving, self-aggrandising guff of homeopathy wasn't true. As a narrative, the homeopath's one is much more fulfilling. But I'm humble enough to let facts inside my head. And realise that reading books about the wonders of homeopathy wasn't the same as being medically qualified.

It makes me a much more pleasant person. Trust me, you haven't lived until you've heard a reiki therapist telling someone that their invisible disability, diagnosed by conventional science, is the result of negative thoughts. That's compassion, is it?

Tilly - who gives a fuck about alternative therapists and their clients as long as:

• they aren't breaking the law
• they are freely consenting to treatment.

Why have you got such a bee in your bonnet about it? You don't have to use alternative therapies if you don't want to.

As for people attending church - actually many people turn to religion when they are struggling to cope with, pain, loss and loneliness. Probably the same reason why people use alternative therapies, particularly as GP's only generally assign 5 minutes to each patient, and talking therapies are hard to access through the NHS.

...but I'm sorry you're surrounded by fuckwits.

I know many people who use alternative therapies. They are all normal, caring, sensible and nice.

Oh, and well done in putting some money in a box for a medical charity. Good for you. Would you like to reveal how much?

Minifingers but how can someone give consent when they don't know the full facts? That is my issue!

Read my post again. It will help you see why I "have a bee in my bonnet" and show you that, actually, I did have to use alternative therapies, whether or not I wanted to.

It's a really good thing I never developed anything serious as a child. Otherwise? I'd be one of the children recorded on that link you sneered at. My mother couldn't recognise a broken arm! I was screaming when anyone touched it for weeks. Pretty obvious, no? How would she have done with diabetes, do you think?

"Consent" is not the same as "saying yes", either. Being informed is a prerequisite. And if you were informed, you wouldn't be treating anythingwithritually slapped water, and paying for it.