To think that CM should be made harder to avoid?

[HudYerWeisht]

Just through a couple of threads I have seen in the last fews days and my own personal experience which I know is shared by many others it has come to light that it seems to be fairly easy to avoid or lower CM payments.

Is it made too easy for NR parents to do this or is it just me that thinks so?

Some of the problem I have come up against, some from the threads and some from other PPs experience include:-

Giving up work to be a SAHP for further children or step children.

Giving up work and working cash in hand.

Going self employed and being economical with the truth re salary

Giving up work to enter into full time education.

Employers (usually of small companies) being economical with the truth re NRP salary.

Moving abroad to work.

Giving up work and claiming benefits.

Giving CMS/CSA the run around.

Constant job hopping.

Moving in with someone who has children

Having further children

Sometimes the list seems endless. I personally am yet to see a single penny towards my DD (almost 3, separated/divorced from 7 weeks) despite him having been working for the past 7 months. He has taken advice from various FFJ posters (yawn) on how to actively avoid contributing financially towards DD. Refusing to CMS the majority of the time until threats of wages arrest then getting in touch to say the details they hold over his salary are incorrect and then when asked for proof starts ignoring again. I appreciate arrears are accruing but if they never get any money from him my DD will never see the benefit of that. He is not the most reliable worked and it beggars belief he has been employed this long. I very much doubt that she will ever see a single penny.

I seem to have on these boards also come across a lot of people who support the NRPs right to change their circumstances at the expense of the RP, in most cases the lowered amount has to be picked up from somewhere else and that place is usually the RPs wage packet even though quite often they are struggling to make ends meet themselves.

I fully appreciate that everyone is vulnerable to unintentional unforeseen financial hardship but if a NRP makes an intentional choice within their life that will directly affect CM payments should they still be held accountable for their existing financial obligation they already have towards their existing children.

Is it too easy for some to slip under the radar thus leaving some RP to pick up the full financial responsibility? Should there be stricter enforcement? Penalties towards NRP for not paying towards their children's upbringing?

If a RP decided to radically over-hall their lifestyle and not be able to contribute towards their children's upbringing the children would be removed. It's that simple really. And yet there doesn't seem to be anything for a NRP to duck out of paying a single penny if they know how.

DISCLAIMER: I am not referring to all NRP, there are plenty great one's out there. Unfortunately I just picked a wrong 'un.

You have somewhat undermined your own argument. Despite not receiving CM, your DCs have not been removed from you because they are starved, badly clothed or neglected. Therefore, it is possible for a RP to support their DCs financially alone, with help from the state.

Not undermining my own argument at all, I have been very fortunate to be able to earn enough money to support my DC.

It has been a huge struggle to get here though and there were times where I couldn't afford to eat myself. It was a choice between me going without or my child going without and every time I chose myself to go without. I wore shoes in the winter that had a hole in the sole because I couldn't afford new shoes for myself but my daughter always had good fitting shoes. I wore a cardigan to work in April 2011 for the entire month (which where I stay saw heavy snow) because I couldn't afford a winter coat and I had had to leave my old one's at the house I shared with my ex when I moved out, I made sure my daughter had cosy hat's, gloves, scarf etc. I bought a small heater for my DDs room in the first flat I stayed in to put on at night because it was cheaper to just heat her room than it was the entire house, so in minus degree weather I would sit in my own home with blankets and all sorts just to try and stay warm.

Just because I managed doesn't mean I was coping. I was ill a lot and it broke my heart that sometimes I physically struggled to play with my daughter the way I should have been able to. It broke my heart that when she was ill I couldn't afford to take a taxi to the hospital and had to ask my neighbour to take us because my parents were away. It broke my heart that the one man who was meant to love my daughter had turned his back on her and worst of all I felt like even though I was doing the very best I could at that time I was failing at every turn.

I had to stay in a flat that had damp in my room because I couldn’t afford the deposit for a new flat.

Throughout all of this I didn’t receive one penny in CM towards my DD. If you truly think that because some people manage everyone should be able to then you are extremely naïve. I am proud that I have managed to built a good life for my daughter and myself and I won’t ever let anyone take that away from me and I won’t ever condone a man using my family that I fought bloody hard to keep afloat as an excuse to get out of paying towards their own DC.

sparechange do you have a link to the blog, I think it may be quite interesting reading.

April 2012 even.

Unfortunately, people can be very bitter following a break up and both sides are capable of using money as part of a power struggle.

For every tale I hear of an NRP who in the RP's opinion has made bad financial decisions that impact on their children, I hear a tale of an RP defending their right to not work and to stay at home to look after the children.

Tit for tat over which parent should be financially responsible is pointless. Both sides should do all they can to ensure financial stability for their child. If one can see that the other isn't, they will need to up their game whether RP or NRP and that really grates.

My DH has a very stressful job which takes him away from me and his DD. He was offered a promotion which would have meant a lot more money for all of us, and more CM. We decided together he would turn it down for his health and also that he could have a strong marriage, and a strong relationship with his DD. Her mother (the RP) asks him every six months or so why the hell he hasn't had a paid rise in however many years - SHE DOESN'T WORK!

We have been considering him leaving his job altogether and him starting up on his own in a different industry which would mean a huge drop in salary, maybe no earnings for a year. We would like a business for his own self worth and achievement (he has worked full time in career roles for 25 years, and been the soul financial support for their DD for 15, along with the state). Also to build something that is ours for the future of our whole family including his DD. But it will probably never happen because her Mum refuses to work. As much as he has the right to, he can never leave the job he hates and that makes him ill, or make his own decisions about what is best for his family because he has to support his DD. How is that fair?

It's all anecdotal, there are NRPs who shirk their responsibilities, lots of them. But there are lots of Golden Uterus RPs who think that only they are capable of making sound judgements for their children. Both annoy me equally.

If a NRP is being "blocked" then there are appropriate channels that they should take. This is exactly the same thing! The appropriate channels work no better the other way round.

You see a lot of complaints on Lone Parents board. Just thinking about my RL expereinces:

1, me - my ex has DD 6 out out 14 days. He pays on the nose what the CSA tells him to. He will literally recalculate every five seconds to make sure he pays not a penny more and I cover all her school trips/ uniform etc. but he pays the right amount.

2, friend - ex husband pays 20% net income as they have two children. He has them every Friday and EOW all weekend. Doesn't pro rata for the days he has the kids. He pays for half of all big costs.

3, My DH - pays CSA, plus DSDs mobile phone, school dinners, and £160/mth pocket money.Doesn't give mum extra but doesnt pro rata for days DSD is here because the last time he did mum went mental and stopped contact

4, friend - ex pays £320 per month for two children. They don't involve the CSA, he has them EOW and earns about 30k.

5, friend - ex pays 20% net salary for one child. He has the child every night as she works nights, she has the child every day as he works days. He also covers childcare costs for 3 days a week during which Mum does freelance work. She claims for this childcare through Tax Credits even though it's him that pays them.

Umm... I think that's it. All anecdotal but not quite the picture you see on MN.

I'm sick of the BS excuses tbh.

If you don't pay your tax, VAT, parking fines, or council tax the state can and DOES come after you. If you don't pay your child maintenance - NOTHING HAPPENS in far too many cases.

Even on this thread there are subsequent partners getting miffed cos of maintenance payments to first families. For me second wives who constantly biatch about maintenance payments to man's children from prior relationships are on the same low moral level as women who deliberately and knowingly target married men for affairs. The sisterhood lets down it's own all too often for my liking.

As I see it, the government didn't impregnate me - my son's father did, and while I'll take benefit payments to look after my child, it REALLY rankles deep down that I should have to. His father earns £750 a week AFTER tax, yet gets away with paying nothing as he is self-employed. My son is now 9 with disabilities that mean I cannot work. However I still feel that actually the tax payer is being ripped off here due to one selfish man's refusal to contribute one red cent to his own flesh and blood's upbringing.

Still at least dear Daddy won't have to put up with any horrid nagging about bothering to support his child properly if he decides to form a new relationship! That's such a perverse incentive to do the wrong thing that society is giving to men right now that it does my head in!

hud your hardship story is not unique. There are similar families up and down the UK; some single parents, some NRP, some together families. Yes, life can be tough at times - I sent my DD to her Dads for extra days last winter because I couldn't afford to heat the house.

But I have never, not once, known of, heard about, or even read about a RP who has had the DCs removed for neglect (as you have said would happen) solely because their DCs NRP was not paying CM or was paying at a reduced rate.

Changing the system to accommodate the minority who abuse it will only lead to more difficulties for those who currently comply. The focus should be on enforcement, and cooperation by RP with the relevant agencies rather then resistance and condemnation.

It's not going to be the same picture you get from a forum. People post here for advice mostly. People aren't going to start a post saying "you know what, my ex is a stand up bloke/woman"

I have seen a lot of people posting in comments of other threads with something similar though.

However in my group of friends 6 of us are single parents - some with boyfriends some not and only 1 get's the correct amount of maintenance from their ex.

This step child reduction stuff.. when my DH moved out of his marital home his ex began to receive around £700 per month in benefits. When he moved in to my house, I lost all my single person benefits, and I have now also lost CB. The assumption being that the state needed to take care of her because she was single, and that he will now take care of me and my DD. It's redistribution of cash really.

Whilst we should all not be having kids if we can't afford to look after the ones we have, the amount we're talking about isn't make or break is it? It just means that some standards may lower. But the gains for a child to have a new sibling, or as in the case of my ex and his wife, for her to be able to have a child (most women agree this is something all women should experience the joy of if they wish) outweighs the tiny reduction in maintenance to my DD. How spiteful to suggest the women who raises my DD for half of each week isn't allowed to have her own baby in order to protect a small amount of money to my DD.

I do agree that CM should be taken via tax code. I have no idea why it isn't. Why are we waiting for months on end for one government agency to obtain payslips when another government agency knows exactly how much everyone in the country earns...

Frog

Did you even read the post. I said that if a RP didn't provide for their child they would end up getting the child removed for neglect. Nothing to do with whether they receive maintenance or not.

But many NRP don't contribute and there are very little to no repercussions for them. Maybe those NRP who don't pay should be found guilty of neglects even if their child it absolutely 100% cared for and looked after because they are neglecting their responsibility as a parent if they are not paying or paying a pittance.

bochead I have never in all my 7 years on mumsnet seen a new partner "miffed" about their partner paying maintenance. Not once.

If it has ever happened and I've missed it, I'm fairly sure that the person would have got a short sharp shrift.

There's two different points here 1 the arsehole NRP who chose not to pay and 2 NRP who make lifestyle choices which affect the amount of CM. The two are not related.

I absolutely agree that NRP that fall under 1 should have sanctions etc bought against them. NRP who fall under 2 are allowed to make life choices. As for having further children why shouldn't they, if you all live together and had additional
Children each child would get a bit less so its just a reflection of that situation.

Furthermore if a NRP decides to retain etc why shouldn't that affect the maintenance. They are the child's parent and why shouldn't their life choices affect their children from an ex relationship? Again if you we're still together they'd be affected? Presumably you won't mind if they got a payrise and an increase in maintenance followed.

I've just done the calculation for if my ex has a baby with his wife (or moved in with a new woman who already had a child. It is currently £46 per week. With a child it would be £42 per week.

I don't understand why there isn't more of a movement at government level to get NRPs to pay for their children.

With all the cut backs, you'd think that they'd see where they could reduce benefits by insisting that people support their own offspring rather than doing a disappearing act and leaving the state to support a child and single parent.

In Germany, US and many other countries, you don't get to opt out of child maintenance - any time spent not working merely builds up what you owe and the RP gets loaned the amount of money from the state in the understanding the state will get that money off the NRP in time. I'm not saying we should definitely move to those systems, but why is there no political appetite to make people pay for their kids?

And as for FFJ teaching men how to get out of paying CMA? That's disgusting - so it's your right to spend time with your kid but you have no responsibilities to provide for them???

The system does need changing. But more than that attitudes need changing. It is more shameful to smoke in a public place or drink drive than to walk away from the children you produced and dodge your responsibility towards them.
People barely blink an eye when they hear a NRP is avoiding paying, infact to some its almost a badge of honour because the current mindset is that divorced women are out to screw as much money from their exes as possible. CM is seen as a brucey bonus, not what it actually is, which is money to raise their child.
There needs to be a concerted effort to make non paying socially unacceptable, like they did with drink driving and smoking. It might take a generation to make that shift in attitudes, but it needs to happen
Until then NRP's will dodge paying because there are barely any consequences for them if they do

The thing is though Russian you chose to have him move in the RP thus reducing your benefits. That was your choice the RP doesn't choose to have their CM reduced.

And seriously it's not make or break? Whilst I was living below the breadline my ex should have been paying in excess of £50 a week. I was broken at that point and that amount would have made a huge difference. I was going without at every angle to provide for my daughter but if he has been contributing what he was meant to it would have meant I could have looked her and after myself and not faced a toss up of who get's to eat tonight (obviously it was always my DD that ate)

I am not saying for one second that the ex and partner shouldn't be allowed to have children. Of course they should, if it doesn't already reduce what is quite often low maintenance anyway.

bochead I have never in all my 7 years on mumsnet seen a new partner "miffed" about their partner paying maintenance

You don't have to look very far. I've seen it plenty.

Yes I chose it, but the alternative was I remained single. One of the biggies he considered when we moved in was how nice it would be for his DD to visit a proper family home with step mum and step siblings over his tiny batchelor pad. Everyone benefitted.

I wasn't saying CM isn't make or break, I was saying the small reduction for another child isn't make or break. And if it is, you have bigger problems than maintenance.

Where Hud?!!!

I will have a look and see if I can see the one thread that springs to mind. Will post if I can. There was a lot of uproar on that thread but actually quite a few in agreement too. Hopefully it never got deleted as it was a bit of a bun fight as you can imagine.

I agree that in most cases the reduction for another child isn't a lot. But if there are say 3 children in the household they amount can be reduced quite drastically.

Oh okay - you said you'd seen it plenty. If it was one ghost thread that turned in to a huge bun fight and could have potentially been deleted, it was probably just a rogue twat. I have never seen any new partner on MN say they are miffed or in anyway aggrieved that their partner pays maintenance.

I have seen the comments plenty that specific thread is the only full on thread about why someone's husband shouldn't have to pay CM that I have read.

Will look and link if I can find it really should be working

Okay, well I've never seen it on here or in RL. Happy to be proved wrong.

The only other thread I could remember the name of has had all the comments removed at the posters request.