To think it is time to secularise all state-funded education?

[fideline]

Just that really.

And how much do the tax payers pay to fund those private schools?

hun - that's a completely separate debate.

Far more than a 'tiny fraction' of pupils are religiously selected in oversubscribed schools.

Upthread I linked to the British social attitudes survey - in addition to the Religion chapter, the School choice chapter is also somewhat relevant to this debate.

'Jonathan Rabson, executive director of the National Association of Orthodox Jewish Schools, said that the association was "very surprised that there has been no consultation, and we are considering our position as this statement has come without any notice". '

He thinks they need consulting about tampering with exam papers?

What concerns me even more than the issue of the exam paper is that one can infer that these children are not being taught some basic scientific information.

Although it's a bit of a tangent, the state does provide funding (even if indirectly via tax breaks) to independent schools where the school is registered as a charity. I'd abolish that too. Frankly I'd be happy to abolish all independent schools, because there will never be anything approaching equality in education while the rich and powerful can send their own children to schools which discriminate on the basis of wealth.

The issue of faith-based discrimination could be solved more readily, but for political reasons is likely to be become more discriminatory and divisive, not less.

That story about tampering with exam papers is shocking! How have the schools got the nerve to complain about how concerned they are that someone might stop them interfering with the exam papers?

It infuriates me that in the borough of London we are in the council are actually opening more faith schools and they or the govt allowing faith free schools galore, not just dealing with those already here. I can think of three local secondaries that are faith schools and opened in the last five years.

With primaries there are often places for non believers at C of E schools here but not the catholic and jewish schools which fill places with children of those faiths.

My dcs very multi cultural C of E school (primary , no real choice in the matter, didn't lie to get a place, under subscribed, would have much preferred a good community school) has a governing body made up of a majority of church governors, whose priorities might be different to the parents. The teachers vary in their devoutness but most have the children pray three times a day. My ds has been told recently that "god will forgive you if you get the answers wrong" by a known to be very, very devout teacher...in a maths lesson.

They also ask parents to read bible passages at home with their children (probably outed myself as don't imagine many schools do this?) which I find disrespectful to other faith and no faith families. It is a church school fine, but don't tell me what to do at home.
Oh and dc have been taught creationism as fact with no evolution teacher as counter balance.
I suppose my point is that faith schools can also vary in how much they push their faith. I know another local c of e school is much milder with it.

Dc have said they want a non religious secondary (and I have been careful not to indoctrinate them with my cynicism).
It especially annoys me when criteria have "children of other faiths" after their main faith selection criteria, and then lower "other children". As in those with no faith are truly bottom of the heap.
Wondering whether the authorities would allow a humanist or overtly atheist free school...parents swearing allegiance to Dawkins could be on the selection criteria.

Typo: should read no evolution teaching not evolution teacher.

A headteacher in the NE of England (I think!) did try to convert his school to a secular school but following the model that faith schools use . I guess the advantage of this would be that the daily act of worship could possibly have become a daily act of humanism, the school could have more autonomy over selection criteria, and presumably the school governing body could appoint governors on the basis of their secular viewpoints.

He wasn't allowed though. Discrimination again...

It especially annoys me when criteria have "children of other faiths" after their main faith selection criteria, and then lower "other children". As in those with no faith are truly bottom of the heap

Yes. If it was any other group at the bottom of the heap there would be an outcry. But the mildest complaint about this and you're branded a 'militant'.

I think toke gestures in assembly might be pushing it a bit, kim

This's what happens when atheists are in charge- the moral compass goes all to pot.....

Now you're just blowing smoke, martorana.

YANBU.

The policy discriminates against parents who are either unreligious but honest enough to not be prepared to lie or not of the "right" background and so not able to get away with lying. It also helps (mainly) the church stay alive.

And it adds to the pollution as lots of children are not allocated their nearest school.

When I get really angry I imagine it's a bit like apartheid as around us, the CofE school is mainly white, and so the other local primary ends up being a little more, er, colourful.

kim - problem is, they still require some sort of 'attendance' (was it this thread or another where a Buddhist was screwed because there's no group near her?) - just saying you meditate and believe in wisdom and compassion won't cut the mustard I'm afraid.

When I get really angry I imagine it's a bit like apartheid as around us, the CofE school is mainly white, and so the other local primary ends up being a little more, er, colourful.

A few years ago we were visiting a museum in Bolton. On a wall were a couple of nice posters made by a pair of nearby schools. The children's names were listed. The CofE school list was all typical 'English' names. The community school's was all 'Muslim' names. We were gobsmacked - hadn't thought that really happened but there it was in black and white.

I agree with everything said by Errol and others; why should the non religious have to pay for a service which their own children cannot access.

I work in an international school in Asia where no religion is allowed in assemblies. Religion is expected to be a private family thing. The students do discuss it a bit and are interested in the different customs, just like they discuss how different nationalities do things. It works well.

"hadn't thought that really happened but there it was in black and white"

Quite. Like a little apartheid, replicated in cities nationwide.

It is rather chilling, actually.

I really wish we could have a poll on threads like this but it does look generally like the majority agree that state schools shouldn't discriminate on faith grounds, even among those of us who follow a faith. I wonder if the powers that be realise this.

I found a report which looks interesting, concerned with the role of faith schools in community cohesion - haven't yet had time to read in detail. It isn't anti faith schools, but makes some good recommendations.

Six key recommendations to
clarify the role of faith schools in
our education system

1. End selection on the basis of faith

Faith schools should be for the benefit of all in society rather than just some. If faith schools are convinced of their relevance for society, then that should apply equally for all children. With state funding comes an obligation to be relevant and open to all citizens.

1. Children should have a greater say in how they

are educated Children’s rights are as important as parents’ rights. While the debate about faith schools is characterized by discussions of parental choice of education, there is little discussion about children’s voice.

1. RE should be part of the core national curriculum

Provision for learning about religion is too often poor in schools without a religious character. Provision for learning about religions beyond that of the sponsoring faith in faith schools is also inadequate.

1. Faith schools should also serve the most

disadvantaged Despite histories based on challenging poverty and inequality, and high-level pronouncements that suggest a mission to serve the most disadvantaged in society, faith schools educate a disproportionately small number of young people at the lowest end of the socio-economic scale.

1. Faith schools must value all young people

People cherish facets of their identities beyond their faith, and these also need to be the focus of learning in faith schools – and valued within them. Similarly, religious identities should be more highly valued within schools that don’t have a religious character.

1. Faith should continue to play an important role in

our education system With these recommendations acted upon, faith schools should remain a significant and important part of our education system, offering diversity in the schooling system as a means of improving standards, offering choice to parents and developing effective responses to local, national and global challenges in education

Oddboots - yes - whenever these threads come up, there usually seems to be broad agreement with 3 separate issues:

1. faith schools should not discriminate against children on the basis of their parent's religion

2. the requirement for 'broadly Christian collective worship' should be removed or substantially amended.

3. A balanced RE/ethics/philosophy syllabus should be taught in all schools.