Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think it is time to secularise all state-funded education?

751 replies

fideline · 25/03/2014 20:40

Just that really.

OP posts:
morethanpotatoprints · 30/03/2014 23:11

Sabrina

My dh is an atheist, I'm a Christian
Ds1 no comment Ds2 Atheist dd Christian at the moment.

all children were christened Methodist when babies.
They have been to an assortment of faith and community schools in 2 counties 250 miles apart.
Never once did we supply any evidence, meet any criteria to attend the schools. One was even Catholic.

Faith schools will accept none practising Christians and atheists they just come further down the list.

It isn't the problem of Faith schools but the lack of community schools.
I fully understand that removing choice isn't fair.

WorrySighWorrySigh · 30/03/2014 23:12

My DCs attended a secular scool in the Netherlands. No carol concert, no nativity. There was a harvest festival - agriculture is a big part of the economy.

Our experience was that the school marked the changing seasons far more so than we see in the UK. In Britain all we seem to have is christmas and easter.

I dont see why anyone believes that removing worship from all state schools would be so complicated. I dont believe that it would leave a huge void. If anything it would just remove extra work.

CorusKate · 30/03/2014 23:14

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 30/03/2014 23:16

Faith schools will accept none practising Christians and atheists they just come further down the list.

That is discrimination on the basis of faith, and I wonder how that is still acceptable?

Boiing · 30/03/2014 23:16

I agree. In my town all the 'outstanding' ofsted schools happen to be christian and you have to go to a particular church to get in. So children whose parents aren't of that particular faith or church, have to attend schools with worse ofsted results.

I don't understand how anyone can tell a child they can't have the best education available in their area, because of their parent's religion, or lack of it. Children should be treated equally as much as possible and should be allowed to attend the state school nearest to their home, unless it's full.

And I can't respect the churches connected to those schools as (a) they're packed with parents who stop attending church as soon as their children start school and (b) even if you believe it's ok to have faith schools, how can anyone justify favouring children of one church over another?

CorusKate · 30/03/2014 23:20

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

kim147 · 30/03/2014 23:21

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Martorana · 30/03/2014 23:21

"Faith schools will accept none practising Christians and atheists they just come further down the list."

yes! that's the point. People of faith have more choice in state funded education than people without faith. This is right exactly how?

kim147 · 30/03/2014 23:23

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Devora · 31/03/2014 00:03

I can't believe these posters saying that the problem isn't the existence of faith schools, but a shortage of community schools. The point is that these schools are part of the state system, and the vast bulk of their costs are paid by the taxpayer. You must all know that it is no kind of solution for the Govt to just build loads of extra community schools so there is a surplus of places, in order to provide everybody with free choice. It's just not going to happen, and nor should it. But by saying it you avoid facing up to the core issue which is that our publicly-funded school system gives children of faith a privileged position over others.

Of course, if the state decided to ban religious discrimination in school admissions, the churches might throw their toys out of the pram. And that would be a problem that would have to be overcome. I'm not sure I can quite believe that the churches would rather see hundreds of schools close down, though?

Interesting that our hospitals all largely started as church institutions (because the Church used to be the major provider of public welfare provision). Presumably many of our older hospitals started out as church-owned property? Surely nobody here would argue that hospitals should be able to have faith-based admission criteria? And Christian adoption agencies have been forced to stop discriminating against gay adopters if they want to continue receiving public funding. So why is religious discrimination not ok there, but is ok in education?

Devora · 31/03/2014 00:10

I made the point earlier about LAC children and faith schools. Children in care generally get top priority in admissions, because of their desperate need to be able to access the right education for them, and often because it is particularly important for them to access a particular school (maybe in order to keep links with other family members, or indeed in order to get away from family members).

Why why why is it acceptable for faith schools to only give priority for Looked After children who meet their faith criteria? Can anyone on this thread offer an argument in favour of that?

Slackgardener · 31/03/2014 00:11

I've been quite cheered by this thread, I haven't read one rational argument in favour of faith schools....their time is coming to an end...the whole situation is ludicrous.

sashh · 31/03/2014 06:18

Kim147 I believe in choice, why should I or any parent have to explain MY choice regarding schools to you or anyone just because you dont understand my choice.

I understand your choice. I just don't like paying for you to have a choice when others don't have that choice.

OK how about this for an idea.

Keep state funded faith schools but make the selection criteria actively exclude children of that faith so at a Jewish school you could have Muslims and Christians but no Jews (well technically no children with Jewish parents) The Jewish kids can go to the RC school along with Hindus.... you get the picture.

If the ethos is so great then the kids will still get the same education with a religious 'ethos'.

kim147 · 31/03/2014 09:12

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Martorana · 31/03/2014 09:38

What about people of faith only being allowed to use faith schools. I quite like that idea- the agonising about whether to be seen going to church because once your cards were on the table your boats were burnt to mix a metaphor.

Bardette · 31/03/2014 09:53

Would people care so much about faith schools if they weren't allowed to be selective? Is the main issue that they are discriminatory or that they include religious teachings and acts of worship?

ErrolTheDragon · 31/03/2014 10:08

What about people of faith only being allowed to use faith schools

No. Discrimination is wrong, period.

It used to be that in our area that a baptised catholic child who'd been to a catholic primary would be given lowest priority for any other school. This was maybe 12 years ago when we were first looking at admissions criteria. We were astounded - it was so clearly discriminatory (the RC secondaries around here are mostly mediocre). That rule was done away with shortly thereafter, we were pleased to hear. I don't want discrimination against the children of religious children any more that I want it against any other child.

kim147 · 31/03/2014 10:12

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ErrolTheDragon · 31/03/2014 10:14

Would people care so much about faith schools if they weren't allowed to be selective? Is the main issue that they are discriminatory or that they include religious teachings and acts of worship?

IMO there are several quite distinct causes for concern.

  1. unfair admissions

  2. faith schools being exempt from having to teach properly about all religions.

  3. overprovision of faith schools, leading to people having to send their kids there who want a secular education

  4. collective worship required in nonfaith schools

I would personally be quite relaxed about acts of worship in faith schools if it wasn't for (2) and (3).

(1) and (4) are the issues we hear about most on MN - (4) could be dealt with easily, quite separate from anything to do with faith schools.

ErrolTheDragon · 31/03/2014 10:17

kim - because that attendance criteria favours the motivated, organised family. The ones with two parents, not doing shift work etc.

kim147 · 31/03/2014 10:17

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

gelati3 · 31/03/2014 10:26

If someone sends their child to a faith school, they will probably have a good idea of what values he or she will be taught. What values are taught at a secular school?

kim147 · 31/03/2014 10:29

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

gelati3 · 31/03/2014 10:32

kim147 -you tell me as you are the one in favour of secular schools.

kim147 · 31/03/2014 10:34

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Swipe left for the next trending thread