Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think it is time to secularise all state-funded education?

751 replies

fideline · 25/03/2014 20:40

Just that really.

OP posts:
ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 26/03/2014 08:20

I wholeheartedly agree with removing religion from all schools - however many of the issues raised in this thread are not entirely caused by faith based schools, but by the shitty system used in England that is meant to give you all more "choice"

In Scotland you go to your catchment school, or your catchment Catholic school - that is pretty much it for both primary and secondary education.

Joysmum · 26/03/2014 08:26

I very much value the freedoms we have in the UK to choose whatever faith we want, and chose to not be religious at all.

I'm humanist. For me it's about freedom to chose and I don't value Christianity any more highly than Islam, Buddhism or any of the other world religions.

Puzzledandpissedoff · 26/03/2014 08:27

I totally agree - and that's from a Christian (bad one) myself

ErrolTheDragon · 26/03/2014 08:27

Atheism and secularism are two completely different things.
Yes - secularism is the best defence of religious equality and freedom for all. No discrimination, no privilege. That's why the Founding Fathers of the US - in a place where many had escaped religious persecution in Europe - were so keen on it.

fideline · 26/03/2014 08:35

Well said Errol

OP posts:
Martorana · 26/03/2014 08:38

The only Christians who oppose secularisation are those who wish to preserve the privileged position that Christianity has held in this country. People for whom that privilege is so entrenched that they perceive equality as disadvantage. Fortunately, as this thread shows, they are in a tiny minority. Unfortunately, many of those people are so vocal that it would be a very brave government that introduced secular schools- or secular anything. And brave is something no government can dare to be.

ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 26/03/2014 08:38

YANBU

My DC couldn't get into 3 of the 4 nearest primary schools because they are not Christian (they are Muslim). This is in an area of London with a very high number of EAL / immigrants. The nearest faith primary has EAL 32.1% and FSM 13.2% the nearest community school has EAL 94.4% and FSM 47.8%. Its quite a stark difference.

I wouldn't send my DC to a Muslim school either as I don't want them growing up in a monoculture. Note - I am Christian and went to a Catholic school and I don't think I knew many (any?) people who weren't Christian until University.

pixiepotter · 26/03/2014 08:43

'I dont thonk the state wouldn't need to buy schools. If it was decided that any school that gets state funding must have an entirely secular curriculum then the churches could choose to deliver the new secular curriculum or run schools without any state funding or relinquish any vlsim to the school building'

Or they might take back the buildings and sell them to developers

doorkeeper · 26/03/2014 08:46

Delphiniumsblue Quaker schools do exist, but are private (ie are not funded by the state) AND they do not discriminate in any way in favour of children of Quaker parents or against children of other faiths or none.

BackOnlyBriefly · 26/03/2014 08:47

Pixie, the developers might not want the land if it can only be used for one purpose and the church would have lost the income from the government currently paid to them.

Also this is an argument that the church wants children taught their religion so badly that they will go to any lengths to get their way. That would be a bit revealing wouldn't it.

It would wreck the frequent claim that forced religion has no effect.

Bodicea · 26/03/2014 08:53

You get my vote x

ErrolTheDragon · 26/03/2014 09:01

Its a bit ironic that the only real strongest argument on this thread for keeping faith schools is purely materialistic - 'we own the buildings so we dictate the rules'. What would Jesus say?

doorkeeper · 26/03/2014 09:01

ChazsBrilliantAttitude I agree with you that the monoculture thing is a real problem - I want my kid to mix with children of all faiths and backgrounds. However, I'd add to your post to say that the presence of selective faith schools nearby can have a strong knock-off effect on nearby secular non-faith schools.

My DS went to one of the few non-faith schools in travelling distance, and because so many of the others were Catholic schools (and a few CofE), DS's secular school had about 70% children of Muslim parents, with a goodly sprinkling of children of Evangelical Christian parents helping make up the difference - these being the demographic that couldn't suddenly rediscover their Catholic or CofE spiritual roots when their kids approached school age.

It was a great school with great kids, and my DS had a brilliant time there, but (through no fault of the school or the individual parents) the playground was just as much a monoculture. My kid, for example, was one of the few in his class that thought the theory of evolution a nifty and plausible idea.

Monocultures aren't good for any of the kids. They need to be exposed to people with different worldviews right from the start, otherwise the world will be a bit of a shock to them when they reach 18.

samandi · 26/03/2014 09:02

YADNBU. I also can't believe this hasn't happened yet.

pixiepotter · 26/03/2014 09:03

I don't think that is the situation.the school don't pay the church for use of the school.The schools were set up by the churches in the days before education was free, as a charitable gesture Once free education for all was introduced , the church passed the schools to the state because they were essentially continuing the work the church had started.A condition of this was that the schools retained their religious character and this is taken very seriously with diocesan inspections every few years similar to OFSTED (but looking at different things) I don't see legally how this could be overcome?
I very much doubt change of use would be an issue.In fact I think they would be prime 'infill' sites that communities are crying out for

meditrina · 26/03/2014 09:04

There isn't one religion or one type of faith school. I think trying to ascribe motivations about indoctrination to such a disparate group just doesn't work.

Even with lack of change of use for planning permission in the short term, the land/buildings of the older VA schools are still an asset, held long term (for centuries income cases) on glebe land (which have mildly different planning consents anyhow). There will be no rush to sell up.

If people want secular schools, I think (given the diversity nature of Britain) that it would be much more effective to start the schools you want to see; the Free School programme allows for this, and the existing exemption for collective Christian worship could be gently extended.

UK (all parts) is immensely privileged in terms of education - all children can access both primary and secondary education in state schools if they wish, to a pretty good curriculum that puts UK in the top few in the world. That privilege isn't the reserve of one type of school.

niminypiminy · 26/03/2014 09:07

There is a difference between Church of England schools and Roman Catholic, Jewish and other faith schools. The latter were set up to provide education specifically for children of Roman Catholics, Jews and so on; whereas Church of England schools were set up to provide education for all children living in a parish -- that is, the geographical area within the parish boundaries. They were specifically not set up just to provide education for the children of church-going families. Indeed, let us not forget that before the state was involved in education, churches (and especially the Church of England) set up schools for the children of those who could not pay for education. It was only Christians who thought the children of the poor worth educating.

The reason that Church of England schools select is not because they wish to have only Christian children: far from it. Selection was forced on them by the introduction (in the Thatcher years) of the right of parents to send their child to any school regardless of catchment aka the introduction of parental choice coupled with the introduction of league tables and publicly-available Ofsted ratings. This has created a market in education in which "better" schools are oversubscribed and are forced to select, and where schools have become increasingly segregated by class. It is in this situation that Church of England schools have used the Church membership selection criterion. And we need to remember that this is a situation that is specific to urban areas (especially London) where pressure on school places and anxiety on the part of aspirant middle-class parents is intense. Many Church of England schools never use the church membership criterion and admit all children in the catchment regardless of faith. They act as community schools in exactly the same way as county schools. In my city, as it happens, the schools that people fight to get into are not the Church of England schools -- these overwhelmingly serve areas of deprivation and are much less desirable.

The 10% of capital costs that the Church of England contributes is far from negligible, especially considering that the Church of England has been involved in rebuilding many older schools and in new building projects. When we consider that that money is generated entirely from voluntary contributions by church-goers, it is a very large subsidy to state education, which, given the parlous state of local authority finances, would be impossible to make up from either central government grants or from local tax receipts. And, of course, the trustees of Church of England schools also own the land on which the school is built -- that is another enormous capital investment that would be impossible to buy out.

But the issue isn't really about the investment that the Church of England has put into schools, or its noble history as a pioneer of education for poor children. It's about fear of religion: so much of what is evidenced in these threads is fear of what these Christians might do to our children if they got their hands on them; how our children's minds might be poisoned by their evil dogma; how our children might be forced to pray and punished if they do not; how our own secularist and atheist values might be undermined by religious teaching. In the end, it comes down to a fear that our children might be converted.

Interestingly, these are some of the things that people used to fear about gay people. Now, thankfully, most people don't have these fearful and silly ideas that their children will be converted by contact with gay people. But prejudice doesn't simply go away, it seems, but migrates to a new object. I don't think Christians are persecuted in this country (although violence against visible Christians is under-reported). But as people have less and less contact with Christianity and many people nowadays simply do not know any Christians, nor have they ever been in a church prejudice against Christians has grown. We all know that prejudice is fuelled not by familiarity but by ignorance. We know that when people know gay men and women, and know them as people, their irrational fears subside; we know that racism is more prevalent in areas where there are few black people; we know that anti-semitism flourishes where there are legal restrictions on the right of Jews to settle and to practise their religion.

In this sense, I would make an argument that the provision of Christian worship in schools is the best defence we have against prejudice and fear. The essence of Christianity is not doctrine but worship and prayer. You do not have to join in (indeed it is impossible to make anybody assent internally to anything they don't want to you can look as if you are praying and inside be having any kind of thoughts you like). But sharing in other people's experience, and learning what it is like to be in their shoes, and finding out through experience what is good and what is bad about what they do that is the foundation of understanding and shared humanity. I would be more than happy for my children to share in Muslim, Jewish or Hindu worship, and I'm not worried that my children's minds will be poisoned by it, or that they will be converted, or any other horrid thing. The truth is that they will be more influenced by what their friends and peer-groups do and think and say than anything that happens at school.

fideline · 26/03/2014 09:09

If people want secular schools, I think (given the diversity nature of Britain) that it would be much more effective to start the schools you want to see

No Medi I want a secular state education system

OP posts:
OwlCapone · 26/03/2014 09:10

I don't see legally how this could be overcome?

Lots of legal "dinosaur" situations have been overcome I imagine.

meditrina · 26/03/2014 09:11

fideline Why?

I want a diverse system.

I don't think "I want " is ever terribly persuasive. Either way.

Martorana · 26/03/2014 09:12

"It's about fear of religion: so much of what is evidenced in these threads is fear of what these Christians might do to our children if they got their hands on them; how our children's minds might be poisoned by their evil dogma; how our children might be forced to pray and punished if they do not; how our own secularist and atheist values might be undermined by religious teaching. In the end, it comes down to a fear that our children might be converted."

I'm sorry- but that really is the most ridiculous thing I have read for a long time.

OwlCapone · 26/03/2014 09:13

whereas Church of England schools were set up to provide education for all children living in a parish

Except they also discriminate based on religion

The reason that Church of England schools select is not because they wish to have only Christian children: far from it. Selection was forced on them by the introduction (in the Thatcher years) of the right of parents to send their child to any school regardless of catchment aka the introduction of parental choice coupled with the introduction of league tables and publicly-available Ofsted ratings. This has created a market in education in which "better" schools are oversubscribed and are forced to select, and where schools have become increasingly segregated by class. It is in this situation that Church of England schools have used the Church membership selection criterion.

Really? Why wouldn't they select based on, oh I don't know, distance from the school. Like non faith schools do.

doorkeeper · 26/03/2014 09:13

niminypiminy I'm not frightened of religion. I have a religion. I'm frightened of a state of affairs which allows (and indeed encourages) state services to discriminate against children on the basis of what religion their parents adhere to.

And I'm frightened about what happens to those children who spend their entire childhoods not encountering children with other worldviews to theirs.

niminypiminy · 26/03/2014 09:14

I'm sorry- but that really is the most ridiculous thing I have read for a long time.

Then I suggest you haven't been reading the threads to which you have been contributing.

Martorana · 26/03/2014 09:14

"But sharing in other people's experience, and learning what it is like to be in their shoes, and finding out through experience what is good and what is bad about what they do -- that is the foundation of understanding and shared humanity.

That is an excellent argument for religious education, which nobody, as far as I know, is opposing.