If you expect your c hild to be respectful of other children, why don't you expect them to be respectful towards their siblings?

[DiddlePlays]

That's it really.
I have seen too many cases where because 2 children are siblings, it seems to be OK for them to:

• snatch and grab
• insult the other child
• take no notice of their sibling (eg help themselves to all the food wo asking first, take all the space on the sofa and refuse to move etc...)
• push them to get in front
• sometimes even push and hit (and bite) was seen as acceptable too.

Now I get that siblings do know how to push each others buttons but why on earth it is OK not to expect the same respect towards their sibling than towards any other child?? None of these behaviours would ever be acceptable in any other setting. But because they are siblings apparently its' normal and acceptable :(:(

There is something to be said for allowing them to duke it out - they learn about interacting with their peers and a swift thump is often a great lesson in when they have gone to far. With siblings, this comes from a basis of love and the relationship isn't as fragile as it can be with friends. They can also see how it feels to be on the receiving end of behaviours that they might exhibit themselves which is a great lesson and one which can be hard to teach as a parent without being deliberately cruel!

However, as with everything, there are limits and if something's clearly not working it is foolish to persevere and allow them to really hurt one another or cause a longer lasting rift in their relationship which could be hard to fix.

Mine fight and squabble like siblings do but they know their limits and they know I will not tolerate nasty behaviour.
My brothers and I used to fight like cats and dogs but we are so close now it's unreal. I love them big old bears to death!

Hobbe yes child temperament is important too. (As is the age if the dcs. I hardly intervene now but did a lot when they were 3~6yo). I suppose that if you gave a very strong willed child and they are the youngest it doesn't have the same impact than a strong willed oldest child. I had a strong willed, competitive first child and the youngest found it very hard to out his point across meaning that dc1 would always get her own way. The only time dc1 listen to dc2 was when he started to hit. Not what I wanted to teach either of them.

I have to say when I see the number if books available for adultson conflict resolution, achieving win win solutions or non violent communication, it is clear that a lot if these now adults never had the opportunity to learn these skills. Maybe if they had been taught inside the home, with their siblings, they wouldn't need that now? Just musing really.

Holiday I know people who intervene hardly at all with their own dcs, only once in a while shouting at them because they are behaving so badly. But then would intervene if it was another child.
Eg: the example of the twins, the mum would have iffy them hitting or butting each other but would have intervened immediately when it was my dcs at the receiving end.
Or a mum who saw her dd annoying one of my dcs again and again until said dc pushed her away gently and get dd fell back over. Her only comment was 'that'll teach her' whilst I was getting very worried about her (they were on rocks near water, she could have badly hurt her head and/or fallen in the water.) and wanted to tell my dc off for pushing.

So yes actually I do know quite a few parents who intervene very little.

YANBU just because sibling rivalry exists doesn't mean siblings have 'carte blanche' in the way they treat each other.

I need a minimum of acceptable behaviour to feel comfortable in my own home- and I insist on getting it.

I want our home to be a place where certain standards are observed, and that goes for everybody.

Am also very aware that other people will not enjoy listening to sibling squabbles, even if they do only lay into each other.

Ds had a pair of friends, brothers, who were forever arguing with each other and fighting each other. As soon as he got old enough to organise his own playdates they got dumped and haven't been invited round since, nor has ds been round theirs. They seem to have very few friends as far as I can make out.

As ds put it to me "you don't invite people round who scream at each other or punch each other or push each other over into your things and break them or embarrass you in front of your other friends- so why do you expect me to do it?" And thinking it over- no I don't suppose I do have anything to do with people who behave like that, however much they may love each other.

There is a pecking order to life. A hierarchical structure. It needs to be learned that every body has a place. Harsh but true.

One problem, Gert, is that the kind of behaviour that might help to establish a pecking order at home isn't exactly going to put you at the top of the pecking order elsewhere. Ds' former friends don't get many invites these days.

It is actually rather unkind not to make it clear to your children that something that works very well with little brother can make you a social outcast in a wider context. Little brother may be stuck with you and have to accept your superiority, but nobody else is actually forced to socialise with you- and chances are that they won't)

(I hasten to add that ds' friends' parents are on the case and have had extenuating circumstances)

And besides, why should the adults of the house have to suffer while their offspring scream and punch their way to a pecking order?

There is a pecking order in our house. I am at the top of it. And I require civilised behaviour for my own comfort. And I intend to get it.

And I'm not sure this pecking order thing actually does all that much good. When I was a child I was more active and verbal than my elder brother and more in tune with my parents' ideas- so I spent an awful lot of time putting him down. No, I'll be honest: I spent an awful lot of time bullying him.

Looking back I can't believe they let me get away with it.

It has affected his confidence and self-esteem longterm- and he is a truly lovely person who deserves to be confident.

It did me no favours: I made me very arrogant and nothing I learnt from that helped me to get on outside the family.

They were adults with tonnes more life experience: why didn't they teach me better?

I agree with Cory there are so many behaviours that are accepted within the family that will do no favour at all to the child outside the home.

It means no favour to the child who is mean and selfish. And no favour to the child at the receiving end. It is well known that children will forge their view of the word around them, their self esteem etc... partly due to their parents behaviours/answers but also due to their siblings behaviour.
It's strange for me that this part seems to be always forgotten and pushed aside as being 'just how children are like'

The strongest always wins. Which left me regularly beaten and unprotected. We never got over it and I hold my parents responsible

There are 22 months between ds1 (18) and ds2 (16). They fought and played a bit like puppies all through their early childhood and, on the whole, were left to sort themselves out. They were never boys for biting or scratching but did a fair bit of pushing and pulling and a bit of name calling but nothing major. I would not have allowed them to behave in this way with a friend and neither would they. They are now best of friends and do a lot of things outside the house together although they are completely different personalities.

Ds3 is 7 and most like ds1 in personality. They clash a bit and sometimes I do intervene (and get blamed for spoiling ds3). There is still a fair bit of sibling rivalry and a bit of play fighting but the older boys do a lot for ds3 and would defend and protect him to the hilt outside the house. Siblings are different to friends.

I think the main point is whether the adults model good conflict resolution and self-monitoring of behaviour. Obviously a bit of direction is needed, particularly when kids are young, and a bit of letting kids sort themselves out is appropriate as they get more experienced.

My sister and I are not close at all as adults, because our mother in particular encouraged us to compete, modelled sulking, lifelong grudge-holding and leaping to ridiculous judgements, our father modelled silent aggression and eventual explosion, and both parents "refused to get involved in natural sibling squabbles that didn't mean anything". I feel sorry for both parents and my sister that they are so emotionally stunted, un-self aware and alexithymic that they are almost dysfunctional in society.

Siblings are different to friends, Jinty, but that doesn't mean that no sibling can bully another sibling.

Obviously hasn't happened in your case, but we do get people on the relationships threads whose childhoods have been totally overshadowed by a stronger bullying sibling and who have never really recovered their confidence.

Nor does it mean that other children are not going to get totally bored watching two siblings who constantly argue. That's why ds dropped his friends, not because they were ever aggressive towards him, but because he just couldn't bear the constant pettiness of their arguments. I realised after a while that having them round was to him like it would have been to me to invite a rowing couple to dinner and have to sit there listening as they screamed at each other. Not something you would voluntarily put yourself through more than once. Nor would it be much consolation that they didn't call you names. Or to be told that they were really loved up. You still wouldn't want to hear the arguments or watch the fight.

I agree OP. Funny how sibling violence is about the only form of domestic violence still seen as OK by mist people.

I know you (and most people here) are talking about children, but I know of families where teen (and older) boys hit their sisters and it's dismissed as something that siblings just "do". It bloody shouldn't be; needs to be stopped as soon as it develops in infancy.

I have 5 children,2 of our children are autistic and our youngest daughter who is autistic is also physically disabled.

Of course siblings will argue and sometimes they can fight as well.It's because they spend so much time together under one roof they're bound to rub each other up the wrong way now and again,just like adult couples can.

I step in if I need to,they're not allowed to disrespect one another by calling each other names or saying something horrible to one another.Of course they do now and again but then we deal with it straight away.

There could be some pushing or hitting when they were younger,I'd always step in and stop it and they'd get into trouble for it,but now they're older that never happens.

They're all very protective of they're brother and sister that are disabled and extremely patient(they have more patience with them than a lot of parents do with they're own children)and they'd never say anything bad to them or push or hit them even when they were all very young.

I can see a problem when it's brewing now between the children so if someone's in a grumpy mood and likely to snap at the others I suggest they go and have some chill out time on they're own it always works.

I have to say though we've been really lucky with our children,they're all really close and very protective of one another(God help anyone that try's to pick on one of them)and they really like each other.

I have friends who's children try to tear lumps out of one another (which I find really distressing)and whom seem to really hate they're siblings.I know my children all really love one another and they all say that they're brother's and sisters are amongst they're best friends.

pecking order what sort of pecking order do you have in RL?
There are no pecking order between me and DH or anyone in my family. Not even my parents now that I am an adult.
I am self employed. My clients aren't at the top nor am I above them. We are dependent on each other for our own benefits. Even when I was employed I had a boss but again I was as dependent on him and he was on me (him that I would do my job well so his department was running ok and me on him for promotions and ultimately my job if I wasn't up to it).
I would much prefer to teach my dcs about their dependence on other people and how we all connect to each other rather than thriving to be at the top (at the top if what I am not sure)

Around when DD2 was 6-8 and DD1 was 9-11 we had an absolute zero tolerance policy towards fighting. There were several very specific reasons.

DD1 is dyslexic (didn't learn to read until she was 11) and like many dyslexics she was a bit socially immature. (She just doesn't pick up social cues). Consequently she didn't make friends easily and got a lot of petty nastiness.

DD2, was at 6 the best reader in the class and has she'd loads of friends. (I don't think anyone has ever bullied DD2, even slightly.)

When DD2 hit that cheeky smart Alec stage that many 6y do this was a very bad combination.

DD2, being an angel at school, saved all her newly learnt language skills for put downs and cleaver cutting remarks aimed at her sister.

Clearly given DD1 is a lot bigger than DD2, this was not going to end well. DD1 is very very tolerant, but there comes a point where she would thump DD2 and given her size and slightly dispraxic coordination this was liable to hurt.

Now they are older (13&16) they rub along amazingly well and fortunately DD2 no longer feels the need to try and put her sister down.

This is just as well because DD1 is just as clever as DD2, and deep down far more confident. In a really nasty war of words DD1 would win.

Oh I like the sound of you, Diddle!

And you are right: pecking orders are overestimated. So much in life depends on cooperation and interdependence and consideration of others. Those are the skills we really need to teach.