To think that the church of england should shut down half of their churches

[ReallyTired]

There aren't enough priests and many churches are in completely the wrong locations to support a congretation. A lot of quaint churches are expensive to maintain.

I feel that some really quaint churches in villages could be made into wedding venues rather than parish churches. I would like to see a situation where anyone can choose to get married at the really pretty church in the lake district with no working congretation.

Even in towns there are too many churches in a short distance. I feel that existing buildings could be used in more imaginative ways that would support the entire community.

Quite precious! I stubbed my toe this morning but there was an earthquake the other side of the world. Besides the point.

I wasn't being entirely tongue in cheek earlier. There is a huge spiritual power in habit and multi-generational tradition that goes far beyond practicality and organised religion. I have no formal belief remaining but I do have a strong sense if the spiritual that sustains me. And that sense is most strong in green remote places. There is a church in a hamlet called Aisholt near here. An old tiny church in a valley surrounded by trees and above a stream. There is very little remaining of the village now, perhaps 30 houses, but the sense of faith, of hope, of human grief and joy and the expectation of continuity beyond the now is overwhelming. To sit in that place is to experience peace and a sort of joy that I can't explain in words.

But this is so much hocum in the face of finances and those black clad faceless Arbiters the Church Commisioners soon there will be nothing left that isn't practical, economically viable and wipe-clean.

You express it perfectly, IMO.

I know what you mean.

I think part of it is respecting the evidence of someone else's faith and what they held dear, even if you are too sophisticated to value it for its own sake.

Sorry I'm coming if my ADs so I am a bit mad. I suspect I am probably a dyed in the wool pagan at heart. But there was always room for that in the Church in the old days. Paganism sort of just shuffled over and made room.

Don't be daft, you're not mad at all.

Not mad at all. Speaking honest sense.

What's the betting that the OP wanted to get married in a pretty, historic church and was turned down because they aren't from that parish?

But on a more serious note if a church was turned into a non-CofE wedding venue, from a Christian point of view a couple being married there wouldn't have been "in the eyes of God", and would have to have the religious part of their ceremony elsewhere anyway.

For a non-Christian couple, why should they want to get married in a church in the first place? If they are after the quaintness and beauty then there are plenty of other historic buildings around that are licensed for weddings.

As others have pointed out, churches are about our heritage as well as places to worship. Part of the reason why some of them are so lovely to look at is that a) there is a lot of symbolism in the design and b) some people felt that the house of God should be beautiful as this is respectful and honouring their God.

I think I would feel a bit daft walking down the aisle of a stripped out church towards a registrar. No hymns either, or readings. The whole experience would be weird.

The church does sell unused churches though. In Shrewsbury, for example, there are 3 large parish churches within a few 100 yards of each other. Only one is still a practising parish church. One is a craft center/cafe and the other run by the Churches Conservation Trust as it is a nationally important medieval church.
Village churches very rarely now are run by just 1 vicar each, 1 vicar will often cover several parishes. I suppose these are the churches the OP would like to close, especially if they are "pretty" and could be used to make money.

One of the most moving places I have ever been in was a tiny ancient church in the Cotswolds. It was in a hamlet off the beaten track, part of a team ministry so services once a month, but open during the day for prayer and contemplation. I am not an especially religious person, but sitting in that church filled me with peace.

The parish church local to me, in a large village, is in the heart of the community. There might be a small regular weekly congregation, but the place is packed at Christmas, Easter, Remembrance Sunday etc etc and the place is well used by the whole community from the play group to the Mothers Union [mostly over 70's].

No, the church is not for worshiping buildings instead of God, but buildings can be about worship and for God.

I think I know that church.

"What's the betting that the OP wanted to get married in a pretty, historic church and was turned down because they aren't from that parish? "

lol...
I got married in the church that I attended at the time. The particular church is reasonably pretty, but it is beside a train track. I can sympathise with someone who want to get married in a pretty church as you only get married once.

Its all very well keeping pretty churches, but who is going to pay for them?

"The parish church local to me, in a large village, is in the heart of the community. There might be a small regular weekly congregation, but the place is packed at Christmas, Easter, Remembrance Sunday etc etc and the place is well used by the whole community from the play group to the Mothers Union [mostly over 70's].
"

I am sure that such a church is in profit and would not be in danger of closure. The problem comes when you have a church that is structually dangerous and there is no money to do repairs because there is one service once a month.

The upkeep of a large and significant part of our shared built heritage is an important part of the role the Anglican Church plays. If the church is no longer going to look after its old buildings, it should also return the land and money it has been given in the past by the state back - billions of pounds worth.

But I think your view is an unusual one OP. In my experience the reason many Anglicans are Anglicans is because of the cultural heritage the institution represents, and would have no interest in selling it off.

Congregations support their own church, along with a grant from the Church of Scotland/England. If they can't, then the C of S may amalgamate 2 or more churches into one.

A lot of pretty old village churches were built hundreds of years ago when church was a much more central part of most people's lives. Some are grade 1 or 2 listed so can't just be knocked down.

Why should the church fund the homeless or those fleeing domestic abuse, btw? The church supports people in need, whether in the UK or abroad, for example by sponsoring churches in a poorer country, supporting Christian Aid, Traidcraft etc.

Really Tired - you say Being a christian is about having a relationship with Jesus. It isn't essential to go to go to a conventional church to be a christian. Many church services happen in all kinds of locations.

I think you're wrong there. If you play golf, for example, you could go to your golf club and play - regularly. You wouldn't just say, 'oh, I love golf but I never actually play or see any golf friends'. It's the same with church. Sure, you can worship and have a relationship with Jesus outside church, but regularly going to church services enriches your relationship with Jesus, gives you more to think about, and collective worship is really important. When you join a church you promise to give of your 'time, talents and money' to help the church - so you might volunteer on various door.coffee/creche rotas, take elderly people to church who wouldn't otherwise get there, share the fellowship at church - all these things are not possible if you never attend.

Also - churches are there to support the entire community. it's up to you whether you go or not, but the doors are open to all. Plus, lots of non-religious groups meet at churches - after school clubs, playgroups, badminton club, model club, Women's Guild, etc etc. They church halls and meetings rooms are very well used (and help to pay for church upkeep).

Agree almond. Alternatively there should be an alternative of the National Trust whose role is to manage the fabric of the CofE's churches as a valuable resource not solely linked to their value as part of the worshipping community, financed partly by the church commissioners, the tax payer and charitable donations. For the sake of the rest of the people of the UK who might well appreciate the history and beauty of the buildings without wanting to actually attend services. You can't decide to discard a massive part of the UK's cultural and architectural heritage because it isn't useful anymore to the minority of people who still beleive.

The C of E is massively priviledged in this country - it should return the compliment.

YY, I agree.

Though practically, I think people would kick up merry hell about their taxes going to pay for upkeep of churches if the Church did sell them off, and perhaps rightly.

CocktailQueen

If you go down to the bare bones of christianity when Jesus died on the cross, it wasn't to ensure that we had pretty places of worship. He died to save us from our sins.

Early christian matyrs did not lay down their lives to save a pretty building. It was a far more fundermental reason.

"Why should the church fund the homeless or those fleeing domestic abuse, btw?"

" “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’"

Matthew 25:36-38

The bible makes it VERY clear that we should help those who are in need.

Where in the bible does it tell us to look after our ancient churches?

If you actually talked to a church of england priest I think you would find that they consider social action to be a very important part of christianity. Not all people in the church of england are pretend nominal christians.

"But I think your view is an unusual one OP. In my experience the reason many Anglicans are Anglicans is because of the cultural heritage the institution represents, and would have no interest in selling it off."

That depends.

Anglicanism in the UK incorporates several distinct movements.

You have the happy clappy rock music-playing 'personal relationship with Jesus' people, who are just as happy meeting in someone's house, or a muddy field (as long as there are guitars and drum kits!), as in a church. These churches tend to be younger and often have quite strong, urban congregations. These churches tend to be keener to modernise, and though some are in period buildings, they will not appear stuck in the 16th century.

You have the middle of the road churches, which may or may not be doing well depending on demographics, local schools, etc.

Then you have the anglo-Catholic types with incense, choirs singing in Latin, usually in cathedrals or a few old churches.

You can't proscribe any one of these as correct, I think the bells and smells types tend to be a bit snooty about the hand-wavers, and the hand-wavers suspect that that the bells-and-smells folks are in it for the ritual as much as anything, but they are both in the same church.

I think for some people the sense, as they sing 'We Plough The Fields and Scatter' to the booming pipes of the church's organ, sat in a draughty pew in a 14th century church, that they are part of an ancient tradition, a continuity and a link to the past, an act of worship in itself. Others seem to regard any such ideas as idolatry, and only want to belt out in an austere building.

It would however seem a shame to follow in the footsteps of the Wahabbists, and bulldoze our religious heritage, or else sell it off for thirty pieces of silver. It still is an important part of the fabric of our country, and we should not tear it up with great haste.

"The C of E is massively priviledged in this country - it should return the compliment."

Well in my experience it does as far as it can.
The cost of keeping old churches going is extortionate.
One example, a nice 20th century Cathedral - it had asbestos plaster used to improve the acoustics, this is crumbling and needs to be removed at a cost of £7M, read more here.

Never mind the costs of Grade 1 listed buildings. A local one (some dates from Saxon times) has a falling congregation, its future was being discussed seriously but now the local Methodists have started to meet there. (I'm not sure what is going to happen to their huge barn of a church.)

And I think the OP is being VERY unreasonable to think that because she holds a certain set of beliefs regarding what Christianity is, that anyone differing from this is a 'pretend Christian'.

YABVU.That is all I have to say.

OP, you are entitled to worship God in your own way. If that does not include a building specifically designed as a church, then that is up to you.
Where you are very very wrong is to think that your views are more important than other peoples and that your version of Christianity is better than anyone elses'.

The chuch of england follows the Apostles' creed. I didn't make it up. Its not my "version of christianity". In fact lots of churches around the world use the same creed. I think its fair to say the apostles' creed summerizes mainsteam church of england belief. Many churches say this prayer every service.

www.churchofengland.org/prayer-worship/worship/texts/daily2/lordsprayercreed.aspx

The apostles' creed unites the guitar playing evangelicals and high anglican wings of the church. The term "holy catholic church" is used to mean christians across the world. Different christians across the world have different traditions, cultures, languages, but many churches are united with the same creed. (Even it its translated into different languages) There is nothing in the apostles' creed or bible about the maintaince of churches.

Tradition is part of our culture, but it should not define us otherwise we become trapped. It used to be that only boys were allowed to sing church choirs. Some traditionalists tried to use Paul's letters (out of context) as a justification for discriminating against young girls.

Christians have the holy spirt, the bible and to a lesser extend tradition to guide us. However there are times when tradition gets in the way of moving forward.

How would you summerise up christian beliefs?

Thank goodness God's presence isn't confined to the walls of churches.

Could you stop conflating Christians and the Church of England, please? It's rude.

If we are talking about C of E beliefs, I suggest (as I have before) that the 'communion of saints' is quite important here. The phrase refers to all the people (living and dead) who are part of our 'communion,' which is the Body of Christ.

I take this to mean that we are to be respectful to people's memories, even if they're no longer with us.

Of course, this is something differently people we interpret different, and it does not come with an appendix in two hundred volumes explaining precisely how upkeep of buildings might be involved. But that doesn't mean we are forbidden to use our brains and consider how things should be.

I feel it would be hugely disrespectful to deconsecrate and get rid of churches unless it's absolutely necessary (sometimes it is), and I think getting rid of the 'pretty' ones to provide wedding venues 'because you only get married once' is beyond disrespectful.