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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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Original poster

to think it's wrong to criticise an employee for not wearing make-up/being overweight?

54 replies

missymarmite · 03/03/2014 18:19

My friend has just been called into a meeting with her employer today, where she was basically told she is fat and ugly and should do something about her weight and should also wear make-up to "look pretty for the customers".

I am just flabberghasted. This is a part time minimum wage job in retail. What the actual fuck???? AIBU to be fuming on behalf of my friend. Yes, she is very very overweight, but that is none of their business as long as she can do her job.

OP posts:

Original poster

missymarmite · 03/03/2014 18:45

saying to someone that they should lose weight and wear make-up in order to look pretty kind of suggests that they think she is fat and not pretty ergo "fat and ugly". Semantics!

OP posts:

NobodyLivesHere · 03/03/2014 18:46

I don't think it's unreasonable to be upset to be told to 'look pretty for the customers'. It's 2014, not 1953.

DarlingGrace · 03/03/2014 18:51

Your words when asked if your friend has put on weight in the year she has been employed - Yes she was overweight then, although I think she has put on quite a lot of weight since - so she is over weight and more overweight.

Not an issue unless its a busy cafe, the tables are close together and shes knocking them. Removing tables would cause a loss of income.

DH was obese at one point, he sweated with minimal exertion, like getting off the sofa. Is your friend that large?

Can she actually do her job?

RedToothBrush · 03/03/2014 19:06

Just a point, but would they say this to a male employee. If they wouldn't, isn't a case of discrimination?

Original poster

missymarmite · 03/03/2014 21:35

From a subsequent conversation I have had with this friend, it seems that this was a response to a 'complaint' from a customer that although she is very personable, capable and polite, her large stomach 'feels imposing' and so she has been told she needs to find an alternative top to the uniform provided, which the employer feels 'makes her look fatter', and she should buy a 'push up bra' in order to make her belly look more acceptable. She has also been told that her hair is tied back too severely and she should 'make it softer' so as to not put off customers, as well as she now spending money on make up and waste time every morning slapping it on.

that anyone should think this is acceptable in any way shape or form. I don't imagine they would dare talk this way to a man.

She is fit enough for this job, and doesn't get breathless. She isn't so fat she has any physical limitation, this is purely based on looks.

OP posts:

Lucyccfc · 03/03/2014 22:26

Appalling behaviour. I think I would be looking for another job.

I used to work for a local council and my boss pulled me in one day and suggested that I should dress more 'feminine'. When I asked him what he meant, he said 'skirts, heals and a bit of make-up'. I always wear a smart suit, but with trousers.

My response was 'I would be more than happy to do that if you have a shave every day and bother to iron your suit'.

He was the HR Manager!

Innogen · 03/03/2014 22:42

It is unethical, but if it was an American Apparel, or a Hollister where the look is in the contract, she hasn't got a leg to stand on.

Sad but true.

littledrummergirl · 03/03/2014 23:03

Was this a formal meeting or an informal chat. An informal chat I would ignore. If its a formal meeting then it should have been minuted. Get her to ask for the notes as this is a papertrail.
Keep a diary of any incidents like this for future use with as much info as possible.
Also get her to join a union.
Oh and is her boss male or female?

CoffeeTea103 · 03/03/2014 23:09

They might have said something very much different and your friend being upset heard it as fat and ugly. Seriously I can't believe someone would call you into a meeting to tell you that.

Original poster

missymarmite · 04/03/2014 06:03

My friend is very upset about all this. I've told her she shouldn't acquiesce (especially about the make up and hair) but she is scared they will fire her. I'm not sure they would be so stupid but she fears they would make a fake excuse to let her go.

How can this be justified in this day and age? So now as women we have to look pretty for some dumb ass low paid job in food retail? Looking clean and tidy and being efficient at your job isn't enough?

OP posts:

HectorVector · 04/03/2014 06:23

The losing weight thing... I work for the nhs and in my trust we have all received advice about losing weight, about maintaining our own health (we get numerous emails, and it was trust wide) so that we put on a good show for our 'customers'. Now individuals as far as I know haven't been pulled up on it (but they may have) and I actually think it's a very good point. Being obese and working for the nhs isn't ideal especially when we are hammering into people how obesity and smoking are massive issues for us.

The make up thing, 'clean and presentable' mean different things to different people. I would not consider myself presentable until I had make up on, others don't wear make up.

Did they absolutely say she is too fat and must wear make up or is your friend's own feelings clouding her recollection of the conversation? Only she knows. If she feels she is being discriminated against she needs to join a Union ASAP. If she feels her employers may have a point but went the wrong way about it, she needs to request a formal meeting and discuss again, with regards to the weight for example how they will support her in trying to lose weight.

SharpLily · 04/03/2014 06:29

I'm likely to get flamed for this but I don't think it's unreasonable to expect an employee in a public facing job to represent the best image of the company. When I was in jobs where I was, in effect, the face of the company, I always made far more effort with my appearance than I would on my own time as I felt it was disrespectful to my employer to do otherwise.

The information you present about the issue is slightly confusing as you state that she is always well presented but then say a customer has complained about her appearance.

So now as women we have to look pretty for some dumb ass low paid job in food retail

If people are expecting the best treatment from their employers, should they not always give the best in return - regardless of gender or job status?

Whatsthatnoise · 04/03/2014 06:48

If she works directly with food she shouldn't be wearing make up. Most food handling jobs I have had have requested minimal/no make up for hygiene reasons. The same with her hair it should be secured tightly to avoid any contact with food.

If I was in her shoes I'd find a new job and on my last day go in with my hair done to the hilt, false eye lashes the works bet the customers would be complaining more when they have to pick her hair out their teeth.

Original poster

missymarmite · 04/03/2014 06:55

If people are expecting the best treatment from their employers, should they not always give the best in return - regardless of gender or job status?

Give the best, yes. Be efficient, hardworking, polite, tidy in appearance, clean. Be forced to put on make up and pretty hair, no! Not to mention the push up bra! This is superficial and frankly I'm disgusted that it is allowed in this hollisters (whatever that is).

OP posts:

winterhat · 04/03/2014 09:40

YANBU. I'm sure they're not asking men to wear makeup so it's illegal sex discrimination.

LessMissAbs · 04/03/2014 10:04

Why wouldn't you be entitled to legal aid if its a part time job on minimum wage? You may have to make a contribution but there should still be entitlement. Has she actually seen a solicitor to have this checked?

Has she been in touch with ACAS? Has she raised a grievance procedure?

How do you suggest employers deal with employees who cause problems at work due to perhaps having a scruffy appearance, poor personal hygiene, poor customer relations skills? Was this really what was said in the meeting, or is the "fat and ugly" bit your friend's take on it?

brighteyedbusytailed · 04/03/2014 10:28

wear a push up bra? *someone professional actually told what kind of bra she should be wearing, thats a bit

missmarplestmarymead · 04/03/2014 10:28

I would be astonished if they actually said, 'wear a push up bra.'

specialsubject · 04/03/2014 10:58

really?

it seems the job is in a cafe. So she should indeed have hair tied back and maybe covered, short nails (not nasty grubby talons with tons of nail varnish) and no makeup is better as a) she won't be wasting time touching it up and b) bits of it can't end up in the food. No perfume is also good as who wants that stink when eating?

but I agree, she's on a hiding to nothing and should start job hunting. Who needs to be helping this business?

HermioneWeasley · 04/03/2014 11:08

She needs to make incredibly detailed notes of what exactly was said, in as much detail as she can remember. Comments which are gender specific such as "look pretty" or "wear a push up bra" are particularly important. She should then take a photo of the notes with a smartphone that will date stamp it for her, or failing that, next to today's newspaper.

Are there any men working at the shop in customer facing roles? Is there a dress code?

She should look for another job immediately. Unless she intends to stay and acquiesce to their requirements, she should dress as she always has (assuming this is smart and clean) and probably photograph herself daily as evidence that her appearance is fine.

If the employer thinks this request is OK, I fear that she is going to be unhappy there.

SolomanDaisy · 04/03/2014 11:08

When I worked in retail we had to wear a minimum level of make up and were told that when we were given the job. If they expected her to wear make up they should have told her when she started, but it's not that unusual for retail. The comment about her weight is different and pretty offensive.

SolomanDaisy · 04/03/2014 11:13

Just saw the stomach feeling imposing comment. These are class a twats and she needs to get a new job asap.

winterhat · 04/03/2014 11:15

If anyone is uncomfortable seeing a make-up free woman then that's very much their problem.

oldwomaninashoe · 04/03/2014 11:21

Employers get away with this sort of behaviour because there is no union there.
She needs to join one soon and if possible encourage her colleagues to do so too

justanuthermanicmumsday · 04/03/2014 11:29

I worked in high street retail store for many years. Most the girls wore some make up, some wore zero. I used to wear between zero to a bit of gloss or eye liner. if they ever told me I needed make up I'd walk because they never said it was a requirement, nor was there a fixed uniform, apart from no trainers rule.

I do remember one colleague being told not to wear vest tops, even though other girls were wearing the same thing. she was told it was inappropriate for her. Poor girl was only 16 she had big breasts and it really embarrassed her, manager told the girl this in front of all her colleagues , granted females but still humiliating. If I was the manger I would have banned the vests altogether didn't look professional far too casual, something for the beach, didn't seem fair to ban only one girl. Guess they were jealous of her assets.

Places like Hollister and Abercrombie and Fitch remind me how pathetic the fashion industry is, partially naked assistants really how low has society gone.

I do thinks in some jobs a tiny bit of make up is a must, I.e stewards, corporate jobs.

But food places and nhs are places where I'd think hygiene rules better not to wear it.

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