to think we could solve poverty by simply giving everyone money?

[aufaniae]

This article makes a compelling argument for giving everyone a "mincome".

Why we should give free money to everyone

The basic idea is that poverty costs society money, and that it's cheaper, and of great benefit to society if everyone has a basic income, no questions asked - so no one ever drops below the poverty line. The intro says.

"We tend to think that simply giving people money makes them lazy. Yet a wealth of scientific research proves the contrary: free money helps. It is time for a radical reform of the welfare state."

They actually did a study in Canada where a whole town was on a mincome for some years, and it seems it was a great success.

I must say I find the idea compelling. What do you think?

(Please have a look at the article before responding if you can, there's some surprising and thought provoking stuff there).

More info on the citizen's income here.

There's a meeting at the Houses of Parliament on Tuesday about it - might pop along!

I don't understand how this would work practically?
Who would be entitled to this mincome? Everyone with a visa? Everyone with a British passport?
If only UK did this and none of the rest of Europe there would be a mismatch of inflow of migrants.
Would the amount be per household? I can imagine that would be difficult to ascertain and there would be plenty of split families if it was beneficial.

Lovely idea (bit like communism is on paper but not in real life) but it just would not work.

And poverty in UK is relative- indicating those earning less than 60pct of average income are in 'poverty'. If average income was suddenly $100,000, poverty would be $58,000

One of the main points of a mincome is that it is paid to individuals not households. Basing a benefits system around households is way too complex and opens the system up to mispayments, mistakes and fraud. The income is paid to actual people, not the arbitrary construct of a 'household'.

There is absolute poverty in the UK. The government are chucking thousands of vulnerable people off benefits completely leaving them totally destitute, as ATOS and the system they set up finds them fit for work in error.

Besides that, people die of poverty-related and preventable illnesses in this country. To say there's no such thing as real poverty here is totally false.

TB is on the rise in London for example. A study found the root cause of this to be poverty (through overcrowding).

That should say overcrowding through poverty!

Poverty is about so much more than money. For some, a scheme like this would lift them out of poverty. Fantastic. Exploitation, addiction, poor life skills, isolation means that for some, no amount of money will lead some people to ensure that they are fed, clean, warm etc

there is real poverty - I was there and own the T-shirt.....

but I resolved to never be there again and turned up to school every day like a good girl, got educated and got out.... if there was no actual poverty I do not believe I (and thousands of others) would have had the incentive to do so...

it may go against the grain here - but I made of myself what I have BECAUSE I was poor in childhood.... and my world would be a very different place if I had been "comfortable"....

I would not wish poverty on anyone, but people do need to realise that not all of the impact is negative - I am a driven soul who has paid off their mortgage and now just has a P/T shop job to keep things ticking over.... (and keep some money coming in because even though I am now "comfortable" I remember what it was like not to be)

Aside from where the funds would come long-term for this I think the consequence of a program like this would be lack of support or empathy for anyone experience problems or poverty DESPITE the handouts. 'Well we gave you the money... Not our problem now...'

However am fundamentally against the idea of govt taking money and giving it back. I support govt services but the govt actually giving people cash?! Nuts.

And totally agree with what Period Features says below. If poverty was just and only about cash flow it would be relatively easy to sort.

Plus the OP opened by saying "everyone" should have a mini-income; there is no way people like me need handouts from the state.

If you earn more than a very low salary, you wouldn't be getting a handout, the mini-income would be given with one hand and with the other the government takes away more tax on the first chunk of income. So, for example, in the coming year the first £10,000 of income is tax-free and the first (aprox.) £8,000 doesn't attract NI. By taking those thresholds down to zero that government would already reclaim nearly £4000 from you. By taxing income in the basic rate band, currently taxed at nearly 40% once you include all NI, at a higher rate of say 50%, they reclaim the rest of the mini-income from who aren't on low wages.

The level of min-income should be linked to the poverty level, which in turn is linked to the median wage, I think. So if lots of people chose not to work, median wage would fall, consequently min-income would fall, some people would go back to work to get their income back up, and so on, until equilibrium was established.

(Say median wages is £25K, poverty level is 60% of that, 15K, mini-income is say half of that, 7.5K. So if people stop working to the extent that median income falls to £20K, the poverty level falls to 12K and the minimum income falls to 6k.)

The minimum income doesn't need to be enough to run a household, it just needs to be enough to keep someone alive in a shared house. Child benefit should cover the essential marginal extra costs for children.

I think the consequence of a program like this would be lack of support or empathy for anyone experience problems or poverty DESPITE the handouts

Do you think we're an empathetic nation with the system as it is now, william? I don't.

I'm not sure that the mincome/citizen's income/whatever you want to call it would necessarily eradicate poverty entirely. However, it seems to me like an eminently sensible, relatively simple solution to the Byzantine, stigmatising, dis-incentivising benefits system we have now. People are trapped in the system as it stands. Work doesn't pay, yet if you don't work you're a scrounger and a scumbag. Why should people have to account to the govt for every tiny change in their circumstances? There are no such things as the deserving or undeserving poor, yet our current system seems intent on enforcing these distinctions.

I'd love to see a mincome in the UK. Sadly, I think nothing short of national revolt would bring it to pass, and that's never going to happen here, is it?

Fraidycat have you read the article? The whole point is everyone gets it, then you do away with the legions of paperwork, and cobditions, no one falls through the cracks.

Those on a decent income pay it back through tax.

A much simplier, just, cost-effective and efficient way to get money to those who need it most.

Oh sorry fraise cat, reading on my phone while juggling DCs, I misread your post first time round!

Fraise cat? Bloody autocorrect! I give up!

A quick calculation

• employee on 25K salary
• means employer pays out 27K in salary and related employer NI
• under the current system the worker then gets take-home pay of 20K
• say the minimum income from gov. to worker will be 6K
• worker then needs 14K take-home from salary to break-even
• flat tax of 50% on what the employer pays out would achieved that

Another policy of mine, when I'm dictator, is that everyone should take home at least 50% of each extra pound of wage cost. That means, if employer NI still existed, that income tax rate could never be much above 40%, even for someone with a million-pound salary, as together with employers NI they would be being taxed at 50%. It also means, if tax credits still existed, that the rate of withdrawal as you earn more would be slower, I think currently people only get to keep a third of each extra pound.

Have just spent 30 seconds reading the Green Party site that someone linked to, they have citizens income as a policy. I'm liking what I see, at least on this subject.

A direct link to their policy (admittedly only one click away from the original link.)

policy.greenparty.org.uk/ec#EC730

Thanks for the citizens income link Teaandthorazine, I shall investigate it when I'm not browsing via my phone!

"it may go against the grain here - but I made of myself what I have BECAUSE I was poor in childhood.... and my world would be a very different place if I had been "comfortable"...."

I dont really understand this comment. Many millions of people who were brought up comfortably or well off become financially successful or even independent. They dont just rest on their laurels and lack any sort of drive. You have become what you are because that is who you are, there's every chance you would have done just as well had you had a comfortable upbringing and there's just the same chance that you would never have found any drive to leave that poor life just like many poor people never do. Its not really enough to say "well being poor is a good thing because i did ok out if it"

Well some people do seem to thrive under a certain amount of adversity?

But abject poverty benefits no one!

Of course they do- and there will always be people who strive to better themselves but that is not reason enough to say there shouldnt be plans in place (and practice) to remove the cause of their poverty. It is no comfort at all to people who are starving to know that some other poor people bettered themselves.

Completely agree Yourebeing, the post that you referred to is besides the point of this thread.

suzanne
"Completely agree Yourebeing, the post that you referred to is besides the point of this thread."

I would agree if it hadnt been for another comment that poster had made on this thread.

"I grew up in poverty - in 4th generation hand me downs, in a council house... I and my 4 brothers and sisters will never be poor again - I think if we had had a mincome, we would still be there.... it was the poor start in life that spurred us on to get educated and get out....."

It's perhaps getting a wee bit 'four Yorkshiremen'?