MP's to debate school holiday rules/fines on 24th February

[mummymeister]

Please can I ask anyone who feels as strongly as I do to write to their MP and ask for the changes in the rules regarding school holidays to be reversed. there is a back bench debate at 4.30pm on the 24th February and it is really important to bring this issue to the fore. There have been so many stories on MN of people wanting a day for funeral, to attend a family event, to visit family abroad that I know if all of us affected or who feel strongly write in at least we will have tried.

[notanotherusername1]

I would not ask permission for my dc to attend a funeral. I would write a letter informing the school they will be attending a funeral.

I was granted permission for a weeks holiday in term due to exceptional circumstances last year.

[rollonthesummer]

It really bothers me that people blame teachers for this. I don't know of any teachers that think fining parents for taking children out of school is a brilliant idea!

[NancyJones]

Thank you, I'dRatherPlay!
It's no biggie really. I just think when we say no to these families we are missing the bigger picture. It's just like ofsted constantly banging on to us that out Sats scores are too low despite having excellent value added. Well yes, we do know their academic attainment is important but there's so much else we're about. The enrichment programme we offer is the best I've ever seen and for many of these kids, life is basically a bit rubbish and things like 'quality family time' that I and people like me spend so much middle class angst on really is a rarity. Holidays are usually things of dreams, more so if you insist of them being taken in August.

So what we want to say, is. 'Go, enjoy the week and come back and tell us all about it.' But instead we now have to say, 'sorry, we are unable to authorise such a thing because the government have no bloody clue about the value of such things!'

[NancyJones]

YoullNeedATray, I think what your post shows is that the views of different teachers are formed by their own, personal experiences.
Obviously what you see is parents who can afford to take holiday during sch holidays simply opting for term time to enable them to upgrade and save a bit if cash. This entitled attitude then extends back into class by demanding their child should not have missed out!
My experience is of parents who genuinely cannot afford any holiday at all, least of all during school holidays. Yet they are given a term time opportunity either by virtue of caravan tokens in The Sun or by kind GPs meaning that it is just about manageable in May or June. They may have this opportunity once every few years rather than 3 times a year. So who am I to judge? And how arrogant would I be to decide that another week in my class would be of the same overall value to those kids?

[applepieinthesky]

DS is only fifteen months old so luckily it's not something I have to worry about yet. However we have ILs abroad and I will be taking him to see them every year, hopefully in school holidays but if not I wouldn't hesitate to take him out of school as long as it wasn't an exam year.

[soapboxqueen]

The reason the rules changed was essentially because the government didn't trust the schools to register unauthorised absence as unauthorised. It sadly did happen where schools were worried or scared about a parent's reaction so authorised leave when they shouldn't. This makes prosecuting persistent absence difficult.

However, instead of supporting schools and protecting them from thuggish or just belligerent parents, they decided to revoke the school's ability to authorise absence outside of the most exceptional circumstances.

Obviously it's common sense that children who don't attend much school aren't going to do as well as those who do attend. However, the data mentioned in the report said that children who attended for less than 50% of the time did less well than children who had attendance over 95%. Well duh. Less than 50% attendance is not a 2 week break in Corfu. Funnily enough that remaining 5% is just under 2 weeks but the powers decided that combined with the average number of sick days, it was not acceptable. I think what many schools were doing eg only allowing holidays if a certain attendance level was maintained.

"In the past schools were criticised for having high levels of unauthorised absence where children missed school with no explanation. The unintended consequence was that schools got better at authorising absence. Parents who did not send their child to school received phone calls to chase up their child. If the parent gave a plausible reason, usually that the child was ill, then the school would authorise the absence and both the parent and the school would escape censure, but the child still wasn’t there. This focus on unauthorised absence deflects attention away from the most important issue-that all absence is bad for children’s education"

This bit of the report amused me because I think most parents would expect to be believed if they told the school that their child was ill. Even if a school marks a child as ill an ewo will still flag it up if attendance is too low. Unless they are suggesting that being I'll is not a reason to stay off school.

In my personal experience, over a decade in education, it isn't the family trips that cause educational damage. It's the 10 or 20 minutes late every morning or the Friday off because mum was too tired to get up or the general I can't be bothered to take my children to school on a regular basis that causes the long term problems.

[soapboxqueen]

Excuse typos, I have a bad head cold

[lljkk]

Thanks, sbq.

[Runlikeareindeer]

I'm a secondary teacher. When in worked in private education pupils were given work to do if they were going to miss school. And they always did it.

We have families now that take children out 3 or 4 times a year. Last year we had a parent ask if we could change the date of AS English lit exam because of a holiday. Another student missed his English GCSE exam because he had gone to stay at seaside in a caravan.

It isn't really the 'mumsnet' parents that are the problem. You are involved in your children's education. But some families allow children to be late, not catch up on work and miss weeks of school each year. By the time they are in year 10/11 they are very behind.

We haven't had any kind of holiday for 6 years as we cannot afford it

[NancyJones]

[NeverQuiteSure]

My main concern for the long term, as others have mentioned, is that bolstering average attendance rates by curbing holiday-type absence will mask actual truancy.

It also seems to be part of a worrying trend the state encroaching upon our lives (upper echelons of society exempted, naturally).

Sadly my local MP is Elizabeth Truss

[bochead]

Something needs to be done to make the process for genuine illness more reasonable (noone wants their kid to be sick and some have better immune systems than others, especially in the early years). Already busy GP's waiting rooms cannot be constantly clogged by 1 or 2 day kiddy bugs, as it impacts on their treatment of more serious cases.

Something also needs to be done about SN kids who find themselves excluded from education through no fault of their own. Both the major autism charities have run campaigns on this, but illegal exclusion and inability to attend school due to school not meeting a child's needs impacts upon children with all kinds of conditions. Meanwhile Gove has encouraged schools to actively manage out or refuse admission to SN pupils. His academies policies are only the thin end of a large wedge.

Even for those pupils without SN's, the huge variation in school standards means that social mobility continues to decrease. Opportunity via catchment, (directly linked to parental wealth) is becoming more and more entrenched every year. This is morally wrong and is not the norm in the educational systems of our global competitors, so is damaging us all as a nation.

The relationship between parents and teachers needs to be understood, nurtured & cherished by politicians rather than just at the grassroots level. I think parental support for education is the single most important factor to supporting pupils and that threatening parents with fines at times of bereavement etc, as is currently happening is NOT the way to go.

The nanny state does not always know best, as evidenced by that pedophile organisation's links with the political elite in the news this week, or the abysmal educational outcomes for looked after children. 99% of parents want their children to do well educationally. Fostering the best relationship between parents and schools we possibly can whilst targeting efficiently limited taxpayers funds and resources to help that 1% of unlucky children effectively is the way to go.

[sleepdodger]

My issue is not actually the price of holidays but being able to actually have time off; team of 4, all wanting same half term, Easter week Christmas week etc, just not possible
So double whammy - my kids can have time off and I have to pay for child care and not see them and no holiday

[IdRatherPlayHereWithAllTheMadM]

And how arrogant would I be to decide that another week in my class would be of the same overall value to those kids?*

YY

It's the 10 or 20 minutes late every morning or the Friday off because mum was too tired to get up or the general I can't be bothered to take my children to school on a regular basis that causes the long term problems

YY.

There is already a sense of hopelessness in the uk, its becoming a more and more stressful and miserable place to live. Generations have been written off, and the gap is embarrassing and shameful between rich and poor. This is just another attack on the poor, its always the poor that bear the brunt of things like this. Its shameful.

[Puzzledandpissedoff]

I believe, as a teacher in a very deprived area, that's the 'can't' you refer to actually includes can't due to financial constraints

I completely see where you're coming from, but once you start making exceptions because the parents "can't afford it" there's no end to it - and some won't admit they just fancy saving a bit of cash if they can simply plead poverty to get their own way. As others have said, unfortunately the many whoi've abused the system have spoilt things for the few genuine cases

Anyway, given the importance of education in avoiding / getting out of poverty, I'd have thought the very poor would value it even more ...

[Notcontent]

This is something that deeply worries me. My dd is never late and is doing weary well. But we have no family in the uk and in December will need an extra few days to allow us to visit family who are thousands of kilometres away. I find it very troubling that I may potentially be fined for doing that.

[ReallyTired]

Some schools have become ridicolous about attendence. Our school thinks its OK to send a child in who vomited in the past 12 hours. They get shirty about four year olds who have a day off without going to the doctor.

I feel that children should be allowed to have a least a week or two off in a year without requiring a medical note from a GP. Otherwise GP will not have time to see people who are really ill. Prehaps GP surgeries should have a nurse to employed in the mornings to see ill children who have poor attendence records.

Some head teachers lack common sense about what exceptional circumstances are. I would like parents to have a right of appeal to someone in the LEA if the headteacher is being unreasonable.

I feel that the best way to bring holiday prices down is to stagger holidays between regions. I know that present goverment want schools to set their own holidays which would be a nightmare for parents with children at more than one school.

[PatrickStarisabadbellend]

The school my dd goes to has a large traveller community and lots of Polish children. The head allows these two groups time off not everybody else.
Why? Religious kids seem to be able to have time off too.

I wish the rules were clearer.

[SpringPlease]

I am not bothered about not being able to holiday in term time but I received a really snotty letter from school on the Friday afternoon via email just before feb half term- we are now being monitored for poor attendance as dd had two periods of illness in December,3 days at the beginning and another 3 days at the end due to flu then a tummy bug. We are late maybe once a year if that and only ever by a couple of minutes and walk to school come rain,shine or snow as I don't drive. Dd is a high achiever and loves school never any problems with her attitude to study or going to school. The tone of this letter was awful. It was addressed 'Dear Parent' and talked about 'your child' so no names mentioned at all and suggested I as a parent face challenges in bringing my child to school and she may not want to attend as may get used to having time off! We need to make sure we are not keeping her off when she is not really ill... Needless to say our school is having an ofsted visit this year. How am I meant to stop my daughter being ill! Also she wasn't ill all year and unfortunately caught whatever was going in the last month. At the moment I am a SAHM but if I was working as I usually would be and facing the pressure of having to take time off and work not being happy which they never were then receiving a letter from school for two illnesses I would be very very unhappy and in the middle of it all is a poorly child who ironically loves school! The school world has gone mad.

[SpringPlease]

On the advice of much older dd who is currently working in china I have decided to take dd2 in when poorly as they do in their schools and let the school nurse decide whether or not she is ill enough to attend and collect her when they call me me to say I was right. It may take a few instances to make them realise the madness cannot continue and you cannot penalise parents and make them feel bad when their children are genuinely poorly. I get that perhaps some families have problems with getting to school but we do not and I resent simply being a statistic. We have a poor attendance record at school now!! In 22 years of parenting I have never had that for any of my three children. Can you tell I am massively peed off about it all?

[HerRoyalNotness]

The suggestion should be out forward that a child needs say 90% attendance and of course the grades, to pass into the next grade. What the parents use that 10% time off for is up to them and none of the schools or governments business. Obviously exceptions for very ill or SN children for time off.

Have the thought that most parents are adults and want the best for their kids, and should be trusted to make good decisions for their family.

[DownstairsMixUp]

I already had the e-mail about this and wrote to my MP. It's sad that some people will never get to experience a holiday with their children ever because of this. Some of my best childhood memories were from holidays (in the UK and abroad!) but we were a low income family so had to go in term time.

[Runlikeareindeer]

I'll never get a holiday with my kids wither because I'm a teacher! Generally the rules are daft, but some parents take kids out all the time.

If it helps SpringPlease I am on attendance review as a teacher for 6 days absence because they were different illnesses. All genuine, mainly because I have two under 5s of my own and work with children.

Gove has turned schools into faceless factories.

[SpringPlease]

runlikeareindeer sorry to hear that, massively unfair. I just have no idea what to do about it all. Next time dd is poorly I am going to feel like I have to bring her in,how is that fair on other parents? Such a vicious circle of events. I know of several other parents who have brought their children in after sickness in the night only to have them sent home by lunchtime,by which time it's too late and the germs are out there. All of this is only going to create apathy. I already feel it creeping in on my part.

At the very least our school should personalise the letters they send out about attendance and not make assumptions about my parenting in them! I am going in tues to speak to the head I know it will not make any difference as her hand are tied but I will request better communication and ask to discuss the points of the letter I found insulting. Also I want to know what to do when dd is poorly again.

Last year the inset days kept changing too which I found annoying.
Regarding the holiday issue- this year I have a special birthday and we are going away for the night somewhere fun with the children but have had to book a Sunday night so it's really cheap and return the Monday evening,the Monday is an inset day. If they change it will I get a fine despite the date being declared a training day since last oct? Who knows!! I know school will say we should keep it clear incase of date change but the children are off and school is closed for learning that day. I have written a letter to warn them I have booked it. I feel quite powerless regarding school matters at the moment and worried. How must families who genuinely have serious issues going on feel when they receive letters like that? 'Faceless Factories' is a fair comment. One glove does not fit all.