MP's to debate school holiday rules/fines on 24th February

[mummymeister]

Please can I ask anyone who feels as strongly as I do to write to their MP and ask for the changes in the rules regarding school holidays to be reversed. there is a back bench debate at 4.30pm on the 24th February and it is really important to bring this issue to the fore. There have been so many stories on MN of people wanting a day for funeral, to attend a family event, to visit family abroad that I know if all of us affected or who feel strongly write in at least we will have tried.

[mummymeister]

yep Nancy75. that is really the issue isn't it. all of us, even those in favour of the change, could find themselves in this sort of position. if your head is accommodating, then great. if not then you are marked absent without authorisation. and some places are fining for just one day others are not. others take overall time spent in school into account and others don't. its bonkers. its needs sorting out. I want to have a partnership with my kids school. not bow and scrape for a couple of days off together. tbh you will see many more parents opting out of PTA type things when they feel they have been treated unfairly. hardly promoting the big society is it.

[mummymeister]

tiggytape. in your experience (not sure if you are in teaching or not) has this rule change made the slightest bit of difference to those families whose kids miss a day or so a week because their parents cant be bothered. at our school, those kids are still doing it. but, at the end of the year attendance stats will look better because other families aren't taking time off.

[OneInEight]

TiggyTape, note what you are saying but what about the benefits of smaller class size whilst lots are away.

(Please note this was an I am bored on a Friday afternoon suggestion rather than one I thought would work).

[NearTheWindmill]

All term time leave should be at the discretion of the head and should be given providing it is not to take advantage of "cheap" holidays. We once had leave authorised when our dd had a terrible accident and our family holiday was cancelled. The head appreciated that by October were all at the end of our tether. Of course time off for things like funerals should be given.

However, I would also say that if some HT's are going to be draconian about reasonable requests then it is equally reasonable for parents to expect teaching and learning to continue up until the last day of every term rather than the week of "free for all" that occurs too often. I would also say that teachers need to think a little more carefully about the impact of striking on teaching and learning if that's the particular drum they are banging. Sauce for the goose and all that.

And if any headteacher failed to authorise a day of leave for a funeral for a close relative in relation to my children do you know what I'd do. I'd write to Ofsted and my local MP to complain about it and the extent to which basic respect had not been afforded to my family. That would bring them to their senses.

Generally there should be no need to take holidays in term time.

[Puzzledandpissedoff]

You don't need to go far to find the many reasons why some families can't take holidays during school holiday time

I believe there's a big difference between can't (which the system already allows for under "exceptional circumstances") and won't

As always we see comments about balance / common sense / fairness / inset days / snow closures, etc, etc, when what's really meant is "I expect to do as I want" ... and all too often what's actually wanted is a financial saving

Yes it's pretty unfair that holiday companies load prices so much during school holidays, but nobody ever said life was fair - better, surely, to accept it and think a bit harder about the examples being set to youngsters

[schooldoublestandards]

What MP's should be debating is why, if education is so important, schools that illegally exclude pupils are not being held to account yet it is acceptable to fine parents.

My dc who is disabled was subjected to over 150 illegal exclusions in less than a year. His former school then 'hid' these to make sure that they wouldn't get penalised for having too many absences on their records. Head Teachers can clearly be very flexible about absences when it suits them.

[NancyJones]

puzzled, I believe, as a teacher in a very deprived area, that's the 'can't' you refer to actually includes can't due to financial constraints. I have worked with families who have spent the last day or so without electricity because they couldn't feed the meter. So when granny offer to pay £300 for a caravan in June and I know damn well it's that or nothing then I see it as far more worthwhile for them to have that opportunity than to be in my class.

[moominmarvellous]

I agree that exceptional circumstances (weddings/funerals etc) should be at the disctretion of the head teacher - perhaps with some guidelines surrounding the child's attendance for the rest of the year alongside that.

As for the holiday price hikes in school holidays, would it be completely impractical for school holidays to be staggered throughout the whole year, perhaps borough by borough, rather than the whole country more or less off at once? (I have no experience with travel and tourism - this may cripple holiday firms and not be practical at all, but just an idea)

[Thetallesttower]

lljkk- I am in the same position as you, I don't want to go on holiday whatsoever to my IL's but I do want the children to have contact with half their family in another country. I can't spend several thousand every year in the school holidays to visit them, we used to go away in an obscure rainy part of the year for one week to make it really cheap.

I haven't found a solution, this year we just won't go. It's really not about holidays at all for us, just grandparent/family contact. I've never holidayed properly (as in gone on a nice hot holiday instead of seeing the ILs) in term-time ever!

[CaptainTripps]

Sigh. INSET days do not affect the 190 schooling days pupils have to have. Originally they were taken from outside these 190 days (but that's a whole 'nother story). I don't use the phrase 'INSET days are taken from holidays' here because teachers do not get paid outside of their 190 days. Teachers are, in fact, paid for 1265 hours per year (plus unspecified hours to fulfil other duties) - these 1265 hours are divided over three terms. That means holidays are not paid, but the pay is salaried, i.e. divided by 12 months for ease.

Teachers, anyway, are helpless wrt absence requests and they have these draconian diktats to follow from on high.

Has the pendulum of state control swung too far in favour of government control? Hell yes! Most teachers feel this way.

[Acinonyx]

Paintyfingers:Last time this was discussed on here no one was able to show research that differentiated between children taking absence from generally encouraging homes where education is prioritised and children coming from homes where absence is frequent and education is not prioritised/homework done/children read with etc etc.

I would really like to see this research too. I'd also like to see the research on the effect of absence on the number of GCSE passes obtained. IF anyone has a link or ref - please post it.

We are a multiple nationality family with family on 3 continents. It's a nightmare.

[FitzgeraldProtagonist]

If you can afford it, you can pay the fine. If you can afford it you can go peak time (Q, are potential fines likely to work out as 'less' than price variation?). If you can afford it that is. Which most people can't. Thus ridiculous system which ensures only rich can afford a break. Grrr.

[lljkk]

There are really weird rumours on MN about it. At least one poster said that it was deliberately targeted at foreign-origin families who habitually took their kids back to X country for 3-4 months every yr or every other yr (where presumably they don't have any formal education). Which reminded me of the time I visited a school & a little 4-6yo boy was HOWLING because he'd just been brought back from such a visit & been dumped in the school the week before, howling had been going on for days, apparently.

Anyway, apparently the workaround for the many families in question is to make the absence one for religious reasons. So no problem to them after all.

Yes I have budgeted to pay the fines, only about 7% of the total 3.5 week trip, anyway. The fine is 1/2-1/4 the cost of the price rise of going in summer, anyway. One possibility is that many of my future trips to see family will just be me (no kids).

[IdRatherPlayHereWithAllTheMadM]

nancy

thats so humane and compassionate of you.

these threads always make me feel sad.

Life is so grim and relentless and almost pointless for so many....I don't see why people want to begrudge people a few days of happiness as a family away.

[revealall]

tiggytape - this wasn't introduced because of parents taking the piss. HT could always say a holiday was UA it wasn't a right. And if you had enough UA's to say education wasn't attended regularly you could be fined.
Now there is some expectation that all UA's should be fined. Which they may or may not depending on your HT.

[lljkk]

actually I would like to know exactly why the latest crackdown in rules came about. Who pushed for it? Was it related to foreign (ethnic minority) families or was it due to some official stats about missed days & achievement? Was it some zealot politician or was it some knee-jerk spin doctor's minions trying to cast around for a cheap way of the Coalition putting its stamp on an aspect of Education? Did anyone try to break down the numbers properly to profile which if any kids had holidays without any apparent problems and for which ones, the holiday is a tipping point between grade boundaries. Exactly how did things escalate to the current situation?

DH struggled with his PhD & just as he seemed to settle into it he got called home for 2 weeks to mind the family dog while his parents went on hols. He never did get that PhD, but his heart was never in it, either. The enforced summer break was merely the last straw.

[ClockWatchingLady]

OP, thank you for flagging this up.

We had an informal "vote" thread on this a couple of weeks ago and it seemed that over half of people on here thought even holidays in term time should be allowed. The idea that going to something important, like a funeral, should be banned seems crazy.

[rollonthesummer]

I would also say that teachers need to think a little more carefully about the impact of striking on teaching and learning if that's the particular drum they are banging. Sauce for the goose and all that.

Teaches are striking against ridiculous changes to their job implemented by Gove. Parents are complaining about ridiculous changes implemented by Gove.

Don't bash the teachers-they are fed up with the same things you are!

[YoullNeedATray]

.. but my personal experience of primary school teachers is that they recognise the benefit of children going on holiday even if it is in term time.

Not this primary teacher. Not one of the holidays taken by my pupils, during term-time, this year has been remotely educational or to visit distant relatives. All have been cheap lie-on-the-beach or Centreparcs/Haven/Butlins type of visits.

Then the parents who went to a resort for a fortnight dared to complain to me that their Darling felt left out because they'd missed a school trip. Apparently I should have prepared an 'experience' for their return.

[rollonthesummer]

It really bothers me that people blame teachers for this. I don't know of any teachers that think fining parents for taking children out of school is a brilliant idea!