To think this

[VulvaBeaker]

AIBU to think that palming off sexual promiscuity as empowerment to young feminists sounds like it's to the benefit of lesbians and college boys who want sex, that it is in fact a subversion of feminist or equality values, and that particularly where it goes along the lines of pandering to some pole dancer stereotype, it serves both to breed objectification and disrespect, and to disarm young women of one of the very few real powers that they have in gender politics?

I appreciate I probably am, but honestly when I see young women behaving as if this makes them powerful, I see this serving the interests of people who are really, really not their friends more than anything else.

Sorry, but that doesn't make much sense, vulva. Are you saying that lesbians are by nature more predatory than, say, middle aged men? Your OP does seem to imply, as does your follow up comment, that by encouraging women to be sexually "free", this may push them into sleeping with lesbians desperate to sleep with them in the manner of horny college boys. And whether or not you consider yourself intelligent, this still seems odd, bordering on offensive. An OP about attitudes to sexuality and whether they actually empower women is perfectly reasonable, but not sure why you felt the need to mention lesbians in this context at all.

Personally, I think a huge problem is the attitude/belief that sex is something done to women, rather than being something that women choose to do. This leads both to women who feel they have to pretend that they don't want sex when they do, and women who feel they have to 'perform' for men.
While we're at it, the idea that men have no choice but to follow anywhere their penis leads them is equally as insulting, damaging, and untrue.

You "I really don't care how much or little sex other people have. That is their business." - Yes! This is more or less how I feel about it. I also feel that promiscuity is the right thing for some people, and have done this myself. My main concern regards the encouragement of this as an expression of political protest or as a method of "empowerment" apart from an individuals wishes - the hanging up of hypersexualization as a matter of political philosophy, especially for people who are young and impressionable and might not would choose such.

Sarah - no, I mean to imply nothing about lesbians in general as explained in a previous comment, please don't attempt to derail a conversation about another topic by "accidentally" inferring homophobia into it, everybody is well-acquainted with that over-used "tactic" from some playbook of closing down debate.

Well, your comment implied exactly that. If you don't think it did, or didn't intend it to, you need to think more carefully about how you express yourself in future, and why you decided to pick the examples you picked. I'm not "acidentally" inferring homophobia, or attempting to derail a thread. Your OP seemed to hint at homophobic attitudes to me, and I think you'll find that on a public forum I'm entitled to call you on it.

And if you can explain again how lesbians "benefit" from a promotion of promiscuity, I'd be grateful. Because you actually haven't explained this with any clarity at all yet.

Presumably, what with your self professed education and intelligence, you'll know that lesbians actually tend to be in faithful monogamous relationships more than other groups, rather than waiting in the wings to "benefit" from women being encouraged into promiscuity.

Sarah - in response to both your subsequent replies to me pointing you to a previous comment, go read said previous comment. :) I'm interested in what people say about the actual... y'know... topic, and not interested in fighting some kind of ongoing action that I don't hate this group or that group or kill kittens because of people looking for spurious inferences or offense, to close down good faith legitimate discussion.

Given that part of your OP was the clear assertion that lesbians "benefit" from the promotion of promiscuity, it is absolutely topic related to ask why you think that. You have been very defensive, citing your intelligence and education, making accusations of "derailment" and irrelevance, accusing others of being patronising etc, rather than actually giving any coherent answers to questions. You may accuse me of being one of the "professionally offended", as is your prerogative. This is a rather typical tactic used by the professionally offensive. In my view this is about an OP that is more revealing of prejudice than the OP intended, and an OP who doesn't want to acknowledge same.

Vulva I think you don't understand your own question - you don't seem to be able to clarify your point - I also think you are a goady sort of poster :)

yes Sarah it's interesting that the OP hides behind glib comments such as 'tactic...to close down debate' and 'people looking for ...offence' rather than engaging in a debate they started

whilst maintaining how intelligent they are ...half term for the 1st year A level sociologist perhaps ;)

Haha yes, although I must say that some of the a level sociologists I know have a tighter grasp on how to frame an argument.

And yeah, bizarre to accuse somebody asking questions of trying to "close down debate". Is just a way of trying to shut people up if they ask something the OP can't/won't answer. I actually think the whole issue of attitudes to sexuality, feminist and otherwise, is really interesting and worthy of much debate.

Ninja "While we're at it, the idea that men have no choice but to follow anywhere their penis leads them is equally as insulting, damaging"

Absolutely! The idea that a man is, or need behave like some kind of sexually incontinent beast is a two-pronged (fnar) attack on sexuality itself - it insults decent people, devalues male sexuality and then on another level, for men who aren't so nice, it excuses all kinds of awful behaviours that are at the heart of objectification, danger to women and so on.

I wonder if this is a part of/flipside of the same problems in some ways.

"In my view this is about an OP that is more revealing of prejudice than the OP intended, and an OP who doesn't want to acknowledge same."

Yep, got that you wished to suggest I'm prejudiced about lesbians several (quite similar) posts ago, thanks, and after I replied too. Feel free to consider your point made, or reiterate it more if you think it'll help achieve, whatever it is you're trying to achieve, but respectfully I'm not going to get stuck in a loop with you. :)

Laurie do you think that kind of sex is really pushed? I'm having a hard time seeing it because I've never really thought about it from that standpoint - how do you think this is done (genuine question)?

You replied with a lot of defensive statements but no actual answers, Vulva. Is clear you've got no intention of doing otherwise, so will leave it at that.

I don't think people are pushed into hypersexuality these days, whatever that is.

My dd is 19. She's had 2 sexual partners within long term relationships, to my knowledge (and she does tell me these things even if I stick my fingers in my ears and go lalalala). Neither she, nor her friends, are in a rush to jump into bed with anyone. She's just started seeing someone and it is at the meeting up for cinema/coffee stage. She doesn't view her sexuality or body as a bargaining tool and does what she wants. She's never indicated to me she felt pressured to behave a certain way, which is how it should be.

Absolutely! The idea that a man is, or need behave like some kind of sexually incontinent beast is a two-pronged (fnar) attack on sexuality itself - it insults decent people, devalues male sexuality and then on another level, for men who aren't so nice, it excuses all kinds of awful behaviours that are at the heart of objectification, danger to women and so on.

I wonder if this is a part of/flipside of the same problems in some ways.

Of course it is. It's most often given as the reason women shouldn't 'flaunt' their sexuality, or act at all sexually available. Because it's not fair to those poor men who shouldn't have to be put in a situation in which he might have to attempt to control where he sticks his penis.

Which is one reason why women being allowed to display their own sexuality - deciding who to have sex with, when, where, how and why - is absolutely a feminist issue. Even for lesbians.

OP are you researching for a dissertation? It certainly sounds like it.

What gets me about the original post is the lumping together of 'men' and of 'women'. e.g. "I just think penis in vagina sex doesn't serve women very well" well actually it serves this woman quite well, in fact it's bloody great!

We are individuals, surely feminism was/is about giving people options and the right to chose.

OP, you brought the issue of lesbians into this whole thing.
Not any of the responders, but you.
So why are you not answering questions about a point that you instigated?

I'm a feminist and I used to be quite promiscuous before I was married. No self esteem issues or confusion here. I certainly never had sex if I didn't want to. I was young and attractive and had my pick of men so I enjoyed the fact but I have never felt that I defined myself by my looks or sex life. As soon as I was ready to settle down, I did with no problems. Like a lot of men I'd imagine.

Prosecc - that sounds healthy and balanced, is roughly how I was and how I think many are. Do you have kids? Do you feel in the first place that there is a sexualization/inappropriate messages problem in terms of children and young people and the media or wider society? If you do, do you ever feel concerned that the current movement "against slut shaming" (which I gather was not needed for you to exercise sexual self-determination) feeds into sexual/objectification problems, rather than working against them?

Ninja you make an excellent point that hangs together well. I think my concern would be the creation of an environment that encourages (especially young people, which is after all what I am mostly concerned with as a parent) people to think of particular sexual behaviours as a means to an end, for a few reasons.

Firstly, people's personalities fall somewhere along a wide dial in terms of how, what, with whom and so on would be natural for them - the encouragement of particular kinds of behaviour may be an ill fit for that person, which may lead to young people behaving in ways that they regret, that have long-term consequences, or that involve personal risks, relationship complications etc. they either do not want, or are actually not personally well suited to dealing with.

Secondly, in my view we must be careful that in a wish to firmly "establish sexual self-determination" we do not treat all sexual behaviour as equally desirable from the point of view of a given individual*, or treat a woman as a sexual entity, as nothing more than a means to an end - objectification in fact. This is not so much a problem for most of us, as sexual beings we are generally able to determine what is good or bad for ourselves and exercise our own choices, but in terms of young people going through formative years or stages of reinvention, or even (because such people exist) impressionable people, I think that an inflluence which says "your sexuality is a means to an end that you should employ" is bad enough in itself.

Thirdly, I think the effects of objectification and promiscuity around children - ostensibly for the purposes of "inventing women's sexual self determination" (something that I think in fact women already have, this notion that women are "creatures" to be "pitied" until certain feminists swoop to the rescue is patronizing fucking horsehit if you'll pardon my french) - are likely to be identical to the effects of objectification and promiscuity around children for other, less "ideologically sound" reasons - that is, negative.

(whether feminism has invented that or is magically behind everyone's capacity for self-determination or not)
** (or actually indeed objectively, there may well be standards of sexual behaviour that can be shown healthy; again another point, really)
(in this case, to effect social change re: "slut shaming" and political goals)

^ third note goes with "means to an end that you should employ". Anyway, just my thots :)

@Sold - because I already explained that the word "lesbian" in the OP had no significance/implication bar being inclusive, it might better be phrased "college boys and girls" but I can't edit the OP. The people repeating themselves were just being dicks for fun. :)