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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To wonder why no one seems bothered by links to labour MPs + paedophile rights organisation?

954 replies

starlady · 20/02/2014 22:54

The Mail has published new claims about Harriet Harman, Jack Dromey and Patricia Hewitt supporting The paedophile information exchange. Thought it was a rehash of an old story, but I've looked at the evidence published, and it looks as if harriet etc do have some explaining to do. I won't link to the Mail, but the Guardian gives a more nuanced point of view here

www.theguardian.com/media/greenslade/2014/feb/20/dailymail-harrietharman
What I'm finding puzzling is twitter is not bothered! And I haven't seen anything on mumsnet. Isn't anyone bothered? No wonder jimmy Saville et al got away with their actions. I am a labour voter myself, so I'm not trying to be partisan and stir up trouble, but the silence on this disturbs me.

OP posts:
limitedperiodonly · 02/03/2014 14:49

Will Liberty be able to offer me legal representation? Liberty receives thousands of requests for legal advice and assistance each year. Because we're a small organisation with limited resources, our lawyers are unable to take up all of these cases actively. As a result, we cannot guarantee that we'll be able to take your case on or provide legal representation.'

claig are you having a laugh? Because either you're being obtuse or taking the almighty piss.

Apologies if I've got it wrong but my good will towards you is being stretched to breaking point and I'd hate to fall out.

Come back to me any time if you want.

PigletJohn · 02/03/2014 14:51

sorry I missed some pages

claig · 02/03/2014 14:58

'claig are you having a laugh?'

Why?
They say they are a "small organisation", not a "large organisation".
Does anyone know how many employees Liberty has?

claig · 02/03/2014 15:02

PigletJohn, this is from the Guardian

"Former Labour cabinet minister Patricia Hewitt defended a proposal to lower the age of consent in the face of a school teacher's accusation that she was seeking to "shatter prospective individual happiness at an early age".

The then general secretary of the National Council for Civil Liberties was writing in April 1976 in response to a letter from a teacher at St Paul's boys' school in London. He had accused the organisation of having "some very twisted minds" behind it.

Hewitt wrote in her letter: "Our proposal that the age of consent be reduced is based on the belief that neither the police nor the criminal courts should have the power to intervene in a consenting sexual activity between two young people. It is clearly the case that a number of young people are capable of consenting to sexual activity and already do so."

She was responding to Philip McGuinness, a house master at St Paul's, a leading public school, who wrote to the NCCL on 14 March that year expressing his disgust.

A month earlier Hewitt's name had appeared on an NCCL press release that proposed cutting the age of consent to 14 and in some circumstances 10 "

www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/feb/28/patricia-hewitt-age-of-consent

claig · 02/03/2014 15:05

And from the same Guardian article

"The release relates to an NCCL report on sexual law reforms. In it Hewitt also said: "The report argues that the crime of incest should be abolished. It says, 'In our view, no benefit accrues to anyone by making incest a crime when committed between mutually consenting persons over the age of consent'."

nennypops · 02/03/2014 15:06

Claig, you're rather avoiding the issue of Thatcher's government funding the PIE and supporting Savile. Any reason why?

claig · 02/03/2014 15:08

Not at all. I would like the newspapers to ask more questions about that and find out what was going on.

limitedperiodonly · 02/03/2014 15:20

claig they were a small operation in the mid to late '70s and now are an international one. Surely you could look it up.

I wouldn't insult your intelligence by assuming you wouldn't.

Therefore I assume you are taking the piss out of me and have been doing it for some time.

You disappoint me. I thought better of you and that you were genuine.

Hey ho. Some of us make mistakes while trying to understand other people's points of view.

Bye.

claig · 02/03/2014 15:24

'claig they were a small operation in the mid to late '70s and now are an international one. Surely you could look it up.'

I did look it up. That quote comes from Liberty's website and is nothing to do with the NCCL

Who staffs Liberty's advice services?

Liberty's advice services are staffed by two fully trained lawyers , who are assisted by a small team of legally trained volunteers.

Will Liberty be able to offer me legal representation?

Liberty receives thousands of requests for legal advice and assistance each year. Because we're a small organisation with limited resources , our lawyers are unable to take up all of these cases actively. As a result, we cannot guarantee that we'll be able to take your case on or provide legal representation.'

www.liberty-human-rights.org.uk/who-we-are/frequently-asked-questions

Lazyjaney · 02/03/2014 15:47

"lazyjaney Who knows why Shami Chakrabarti chose to apologise?"

Actually quite a few people on this thread, and a lot out in the real world, know why she apologised PDQ.

You do know that the NCCL renamed itself as Liberty, right?

Lazyjaney · 02/03/2014 16:03

Independent pretty much nails it

www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/pie-controversy-harriet-harman-has-got-this-one-wrong-9162728.html

"Between 1978 and 1982, Harman was legal officer of the National Council for Civil Liberties (now Liberty). Her husband Jack Dromey, who is Labours shadow police minister, chaired the NCCL in the 1970s; Patricia Hewitt, who was later a cabinet minister, was its general secretary. The links between the NCCL and an organisation called the Paedophile Information Exchange have been known about for years, and are a stain on its reputation.

The problem for Harman, Dromey and Hewitt isnt that they were advocates of sexual relationships between adults and children when they were at the NCCL. It isnt even an NCCL press release in 1976 calling for the lowering of the age of consent to 14 a terrible idea, but not one supported only by paedophiles at the time. Its that the origin of the attack seems to have blinded them to the fact that they might actually have something to apologise for."

Paper goes on to say Hewitt apologising and Harmans ongoing behaviour is what is keeping the story going.

AllMimsyWereTheBorogroves · 02/03/2014 17:09

I think it must still be a fairly small organisation as far as employees go. In its review of the year (2012 - the latest one available on the website) the NCCL, as it is still known formally, is shown as having annual expenditure of all types of £1.64 million. Given that they must be paying for advertising, travel, premises, telecoms, stationery and so forth, not all of that can be staff costs. That suggests to me the paid staff are still not very numerous.

IfNotNowThenWhen · 02/03/2014 17:10

I have only got to page 4 but I just want to clarify one or two things, and apologies if someone else already has, as will have to rft later:

Firstly (and this is not exactly the point of the thread, but needs saying in light of what tryingreallytrying said on page 4);
the book Lolita by Nabakov was very clearly about perversion, and specifically the delusional obsession of someone who is only capable of seeing events through his own twisted lens.
The narrative states that Humbert is a paedophile, interested only in girls under the age of 13, and to this end he marries a woman with a child, so he can access her daughter.
The whole book is written through Humbert's eyes, from his point of view only, and illustrates how he romanticises his attraction, and interprets Dolores's every action as being seductive.
This is very important, as we as a reader are only ever looking though his eyes, never her's. Later in the book, it is made obvious that Dolores's life has been screwed up, and is living with the effects of her abuse.
It just needs saying, because rarely has a book been so misunderstood, to the point of people describing certain girls as "Lolita's" meaning teen temptress, when, in the book, she was neither a teen, and probably not actually knowingly tempting anyone. That's the point of the book-that we twist the world to reflect what we want to see!

The other thing, is that I wish people would stop using the word paedophilia to describe abuse of teenage girls. Yes, a rock star or radio dj having sexual relations with a 14 yr old is repellent, and really wrong, but it's probably not paedophilia. Calling it that kind of minimizes actual paedophilia, (being the sexual attraction to pre-pubescent children) imo.

WRT the Harriet Harman scandal, I can totally picture the kind of libertarian lefties who would have supported allowing the like of PIE a "voice" as my parents knew many of these types-into sexual liberation and communal non monogamy etc, no rules, and they were always people I (as a child) found a bit creepy.
I can think of one in particular (my friend's dad) who was a twat of the rainbow trouser wearing variety, and full of right-on-ness, who, in hindsight, said some really icky things to me when I slept over at her house.
I think that, yes, the 70's/early 80's were a crazy time politically, and a lot of norms were being torn down and re-built BUT I also think that some people (and by people I generally mean men don't I?) used that turmoil to hide a lot of disturbing views behind.
After all, even mild mannered lefty trendy men can be paedophiles.

nennypops · 02/03/2014 17:18

I'm still bemused as to why Harman should apologise for something the NCCL did three years before she joined it.

claig · 02/03/2014 17:19

Thanks, AllMimsyWereTheBorogroves.

That is what I now think. At first I thought they must be a large organisation given the amount of exposure they get on TV and in newspapers. But then I thought that the NCCL was a large organisation, until I learned that it had fewer than 12 employees at one stage.

I am quite surprised how influential they both were/are given they are not that big.

nauticant · 02/03/2014 17:21

There hasn't been such a considered analysis of Lolita in this thread IfNotNowThenWhen so thanks for yours, which I do agree with.

I do intend to get round to re-reading it sometime although it's not something to undertake lightly.

GeorginaWorsley · 02/03/2014 17:25

PIE were still 'affiliated' members during Harman's time though,weren't they?

claig · 02/03/2014 17:29

Yes, PIE was afiliated from 1975 until about 1983

WelshMoth · 02/03/2014 17:31

I'm following this thread to the best I can.
Dear God, you scratch the surface.....

Can someone tell me why the NCCL became Liberty? I have had a good look and can't find why.

Lots of things disturb me about this whole thing, I can't actually put it into words, so forgive me for asking what seems a banal question. I'd appreciate it if someone can help me out here.

GeorginaWorsley · 02/03/2014 17:34

And NCCL was so small the 12 or so employees must have been aware of 'affiliates'
Harman has got it wrong.
Her hatred of the Daily Mail has blinded her unfortunately.

claig · 02/03/2014 17:35

Don't know why they changed their name but it was in 1989 according to their website

"1989 – NCCL becomes Liberty

The NCCL changes its name to Liberty, and the new identity is launched at a press conference at the Institute of Contemporary Arts in London by playwright Harold Pinter, Robin Cook MP and others."

www.liberty-human-rights.org.uk/who-we-are/history/liberty-timeline

TheHoneyBadger · 02/03/2014 17:36

lolita is all in the gaze and it's a sad fact that some won't have that same gaze. i read it as a teenage girl in the late 80's and even then i could see the perversion, the twisting, the power and abuse. however some will read it at 50 and see it through humbert's gaze. i think the dubiousness and controversy of the book is perhaps about that - it allows the reader the perverts gaze and leaves the interpretation to them. much as allowing PIE a platform on the basis that the public can decide for themselves that they're vile perverts without an analysis of power and abuse is controversial depending on whether you see the 'reader' as aware and intelligent enough to discern.

something like the nccl in those days would ideologically leaned toward crediting the reader with discernment and the author with the right to portray. nowadays we mostly defend that right but see paedophilia as 'beyond' that and exceptional and want to do nothing and see nothing that could be seen as condoning or encouraging it. one part of that may be the awareness of just how many DO actually get off on abusing children rather than thinking it a strange, other, freakishly rare thing.

i don't agree with the way you, perhaps inadvertently, trivialise the abuse of children over thirteen though. whilst of course we have an instinctive horror the younger the child is children are children and adults have no business using them for sexual pleasure be they 10 or 14 or 15. i don't want the goal posts moved. the distinction for me wouldn't be at age 13 it would be at age 16,17,18 whereby no it's no it's not paedophilia but an adult male wanting to have sex with children of these ages is still abhorent to me.

TheHoneyBadger · 02/03/2014 17:39

sadly there's also the reality of knowing just how many times 'underage girls' or 'teen rape' or 'daddy incest' gets googled and masturbated over every day. we on the one hand don't want to see a paedophile round every corner but we also have it flagrantly obviously in our face that a great many people are sexually aroused by the idea of sex with children. of course you can make the distinction between those who do it and those who watch it being done and wank over it but i personally find that line very, very fine.

merrymouse · 02/03/2014 17:51

As an aside, it is illegal for an adult to have sex with somebody under 18 if they are 'in a position of trust' to that person.

This is also where we have clarified why paedophilia is wrong. It isn't just about thinking that a particular sexual preference is disgusting. It is the abuse of power over another person.

TheHoneyBadger · 02/03/2014 17:58

yes. i don't think in a world where hierarchy, class and even race and sexuality supremacy hadn't been really been deeply questioned and challenged yet that people were as aware as we are now of 'power' and the limits of 'agency'. they're relatively recent themes and critiques even in academia.