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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To wonder why no one seems bothered by links to labour MPs + paedophile rights organisation?

954 replies

starlady · 20/02/2014 22:54

The Mail has published new claims about Harriet Harman, Jack Dromey and Patricia Hewitt supporting The paedophile information exchange. Thought it was a rehash of an old story, but I've looked at the evidence published, and it looks as if harriet etc do have some explaining to do. I won't link to the Mail, but the Guardian gives a more nuanced point of view here

www.theguardian.com/media/greenslade/2014/feb/20/dailymail-harrietharman
What I'm finding puzzling is twitter is not bothered! And I haven't seen anything on mumsnet. Isn't anyone bothered? No wonder jimmy Saville et al got away with their actions. I am a labour voter myself, so I'm not trying to be partisan and stir up trouble, but the silence on this disturbs me.

OP posts:
CFSKate · 21/02/2014 10:55

twitter.com/murunbuch

CFSKate · 21/02/2014 11:25

hear this audio clip

NigellasDealer · 21/02/2014 12:02

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

NoArmaniNoPunani · 21/02/2014 12:05

I didn't think we'd be allowed to name people on this thread but that was who I was thinking of.

NigellasDealer · 21/02/2014 12:13

he is dead so i think it is ok

BackOnlyBriefly · 21/02/2014 12:39

I haven't a clue about the facts if any, but someone said "The only people railing against it that I could see were on the David Icke forum" which might be a clue as to how reliable it is.

David Icke forum + The Daily Mail?

I can't say it's not true since I don't think there are any limits to the depths politicians would stoop to, but this sounds like a smear campaign rather than a news story.

Martorana · 21/02/2014 12:48

I was around and politically active at the them the PIE was active. I remember a lot of very anxious conversations around them- we were all tying ourselves into knots to be fair and open minded- I think that we felt that it was better if they were in a position to express their views openly so that people could make their own minds up about them.

VulvaBeaker · 21/02/2014 12:51

You know you're part of a moral collapse when someone wants to advocate legally fucking children and you don't whether to punch them in the face and spit on them or not.

Martorana · 21/02/2014 13:19

VB- it isn't quite as simple as that. Well, it is now, obviously. But back then you have to remember that the way many- maybe even most-people regarded gay people wasn't far off the way we regard paedophiles now. Many people had fought so hard for gay rights, and had finally started to see society changing. So when the PIE came forward saying that it wanted the right to put it's case. it seemed at the time that it would have been wrong to deny them that right. I remember they made a television programme- it was awful.

starlady · 21/02/2014 13:32

Sorry Backonbriefly, but I think your comment is a bit off. The point I was making by starting this thread was to point out that good people are sitting back, and doing and saying nothing, when as the evidence has been presented seems solid (unless of course, it's forged).

The Daily Mail has MANY faults as we all know, but at times, such as in The Stephen Lawrence case, it can act for the good.

It bother me that no-one seems prepared to robustly get the facts, and is apathetic. The subtext being, nice left wing people who have views similar to me can't be wrong. This is exactly the attitude which has let abuse fester.

It may well be smear. But let them explain why it is. This is important. Asking these questions is speaking up for people who were not given a voice thirty years ago.

OP posts:
bluedays · 21/02/2014 13:44

Well gay rights is about advocating the right for consenting adults to have sex with one another, paedophillia is about adults having sex with children. Even back then, people made a distinction.

I'm sure a lot of people were homophobic back then but I don't think that gay men would be viewed in the same way as paedophiles even back then. No doubt the former would have been viewed as icky and an excuse for bullies to punch them, but not beyond the pale.

We had John Inman's character in 'Are you being served' (OK he was camp and to be laughed at which is not good); I don't recall anybody thinking paedophillia was the subject of humour on prime time TV.

What I'm trying to say is that those who gave them (paedophiles) the time of day back then are just making excuses.

Sometimes people's minds can be so open their brains fall out.

Martorana · 21/02/2014 13:51

"What I'm trying to say is that those who gave them (paedophiles) the time of day back then are just making excuses.

Sometimes people's minds can be so open their brains fall out."

I'm not making excuses. I'm trying to explain. And it wasn't about "giving them the time of day". It was about giving them an opportunity to speak.

I m not saying it was right. I am trying to explain how it happened.

brooncoo · 21/02/2014 13:57

I only saw it mentioned in the DM which means I'm very dubious about the claims just by the fact it's the DM. I also hate to jump the gun so I'm waiting to see what actually comes out without it being sensationalist reporting.

Mignonette · 21/02/2014 13:58

This transcends party politics. MPs and other powerful people from all political persuasions are implicated.

Using this to campaign against one particular party debases the whole issue.

And I will ask again - when we have seen a parade of 70's has beens from the celebrity world paraded through our courts via Yewtree do they really expect us to believe that NOT ONE single man (for they are mostly men) from the judiciary, politics, health & social care, the gentry and finance is involved?

Yeah right.

brooncoo · 21/02/2014 14:01

Practicing homosexuality was illegal once and folk jailed - so it was beyond the pale. Folk are still jailed tortured and executed in other countries.

Martorana · 21/02/2014 14:06

Well, I can say categorically that it was entirely possible to have been on the side of the PIE being given a platform without being a paedophile or supporting paedophiles.

I am not, of course saying that many of the PIE fellow travellers were not paedophiles. Just that you could have supported their right to freedom of speech without being one.

AllMimsyWereTheBorogroves · 21/02/2014 14:10

I was a child in the 60s and a teenager in the 70s. I suspect a lot of you are younger than that. Back in the 70s there was a feeling that up to the 60s there were clearly understood rules and laws which had often been oppressive to women and young people. There was immense hypocrisy, as it was openly understood that lots of these rules/laws were broken with impunity by the rich and powerful.

For example, a young unmarried woman from a wealthy family who became pregnant and couldn't marry the father (or where the family were desperate for her not to marry the father) would be pressured into having an abortion. Abortion was illegal, but there would be no risk of prosecution as the family would know which strings to pull to ensure that the authorities turned a blind eye. Poor women and those who carried out their illegal abortions were at far higher risk of prosecution.

In the 60s and early 70s there was massive social change and one consequence of that was a fairly widespread feeling that there were no longer any rules and that everybody would find their own way through. There was a feeling in some quarters that children were an oppressed minority who should be free to do what they liked. For these people, the age of consent was not seen as a protection for young people but as one of the archaic rules that had always been widely broken and therefore ought to be scrapped.

There was also very little grasp that giving one group of people freedom to do whatever they liked might be problematic to other groups. Many men were absolutely delighted that it was so easy to find women for sex outside marriage but there was far less talk about the social pressure on women to comply with men's demands or be written off as frigid. Date rape and was not taken seriously, as we all know. Groping of women was so commonplace as to be completely unremarkable.

It's against the background of the complete confusion of the times that I recall there was some tentative public discussion about whether children had a right to engage in sexual activity. I remember vividly hearing a representative of the PIE on a mainstream BBC radio news programme (Today?) putting this forward as a libertarian stance. That was probably in the early 80s. It wasn't for a few more years that it started to become commonplace to hear news reports about sexual abuse of children. I remember how shocking it was to hear this talked about at first, and how hard to believe for those of us who'd been lucky enough to know nothing about this firsthand growing up. From that point on, the PIE was persona non grata on the news and there was no more talk about children's rights to sexual freedom. It was finally understood that this was actually about giving a free pass to people who were sexually aroused by children and young teenagers, regardless of the damage it might do to them.

I haven't read the Mail report this week, but this is not news. I think I read about it in Private Eye decades ago. No political parties come out of this kind of thing well, because judged by current standards they were all lacking.

Oneglassandpuzzled · 21/02/2014 14:10

This transcends party politics.

That is true, but I suppose what sticks in the craw is that the likes of Harman, Hodge, Becket, etc, have been so condescending in a way that only New Labour's finest could, so keen to point out that they know what is best for us.

LurcioLovesFrankie · 21/02/2014 14:15

I can see what people are saying about the whole idea of fighting for rights being such a contentious issue at the time (background - I was 13 at the time) that defending people's free speech seemed more important than other considerations... But it's not as if the discourse around rights was a new one. The classic articulation of liberalism arguably dates back to John Stuart Mill, who was careful to articulate a distinction between positive and negative freedoms - basically, liberalism (in most of its incarnations) holds that people should be free to do as they wish provide that their choices do not impinge on those of other people. When it is transformed into a theory of human rights, typically there will be caveats round the situations in which people have rights - thus, a right to life, but not to compulsorily take someone else's kidney for transplant to save the life of someone with kidney disease.

I find it impossible to believe that Harman (studied politics at York) and Hodge (studied economics at the LSE) would have been incapable of a nuanced understanding of rights. Saying "we were all new to this stuff" isn't a defence, even taking into account the climate of the times (when I studied moral philosophy at university in the mid 80s, many of the texts I read were from the 60s and 70s and they had very nuanced and sophisticated discussions of this sort of thing).

Having said that, I think it is clear that PIE cynically stressed the "freedom of speech" angle and managed to obfusticate the issue of children's rights and also of exactly what "speech" was being defended - namely photographic evidence of child abuse. (And it's also worth noting that probably the idea of children having rights was somewhat radical at the time: one of the major blindspots of liberalism is an insistence on a distinction between the public sphere where we all have to reach consensus on what is acceptable and a private sphere where anything between consenting adults is OK - the problem being that children were placed in this private sphere and seen as property of adults - an attitude we still see lingering traces of when people defend corporal punishment, for instance). And it's undoubtedly true that talk of rights often ignores power imbalances (witness the way recent threads on prostitution have posters focussing entirely on men's rights to buy sex, women's "right" to sell - conveniently ignoring that it's more of an economic necessity than the exercise of a human right).

Martorana · 21/02/2014 14:16

Thank you, mimsey- you have expressed a lot of things I wanted to say. I think it's hard to realize how different things were then. The idea of people- all sorts of people -having rights was intoxicating.

Martorana · 21/02/2014 14:19

I think it was just that idea of a nuanced discussion that made this happen actually. The idea that people who had hideous views could still have a right to be heard. That we were a mature society that didn't need to be protected from the dark side of human nature and which could make up it's own mind....

Mignonette · 21/02/2014 14:26

Allmimsy

I am a child of the early sixties and recall the Libertarian debate into sexual activity of and with children. I recall my Father saying in disgust 'they see children as old enough to consent to sex with older people but not old enough to marry/vote/become an MP/own a dog licence even.

And who recalls the brooha about this?

crispycronut · 21/02/2014 14:31

I cant believe not one of the three has commented publicly.

I hope the mail has forced their hand by publishing the documents to back the story up.

ithaka · 21/02/2014 14:32

I remember the PIE television programme - I was a young teenager at the time and I watched it.

It was a very different time -it is unimaginable that there would be mainstream television programme attempting to defend sex with children now. However, the programme presented it as sex with consenting children and part of defending childrens' rights to be sexual beings. Obviously we now know about grooming/power imbalances etc but those issues had not been fully explored back then and it was seen as part of a new libertarianism.

This is not to defend it, but to attempt to explain how it is that people that went on to be politicians could have been part of a broader organisation that included people who advocated a discussion about legalising sex with children. The past is, indeed, another country.

ManifestoMT · 21/02/2014 14:57

Has anyone looked at csikates link.

Hodge was in power in islington and apprently slowed and frustrated the social workers. It's horrifying

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