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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To wonder why no one seems bothered by links to labour MPs + paedophile rights organisation?

954 replies

starlady · 20/02/2014 22:54

The Mail has published new claims about Harriet Harman, Jack Dromey and Patricia Hewitt supporting The paedophile information exchange. Thought it was a rehash of an old story, but I've looked at the evidence published, and it looks as if harriet etc do have some explaining to do. I won't link to the Mail, but the Guardian gives a more nuanced point of view here

www.theguardian.com/media/greenslade/2014/feb/20/dailymail-harrietharman
What I'm finding puzzling is twitter is not bothered! And I haven't seen anything on mumsnet. Isn't anyone bothered? No wonder jimmy Saville et al got away with their actions. I am a labour voter myself, so I'm not trying to be partisan and stir up trouble, but the silence on this disturbs me.

OP posts:
ManifestoMT · 28/02/2014 01:00

As for knighting and obe etc. at one point I thought it was a pre requisite to gave been arrested for child assault as loads have been honoured

moreyear · 28/02/2014 01:36

But the article linked to does not say Margaret Thatcher was warned Jimmy Savile was a paedophile. Indeed it says the express opposite

'There is no suggestion that Baroness Thatcher or her aides were aware of his vile abuse of children as young as eight.'

The fears voiced over his '...strange and complex' private life seem to refer to his 'sexual promiscuity', in particular the claims he bedded women on his charity runs. Officials feared his 'promiscuous' behaviour would bring embarrassment to the honours system in the new era of AID's. There is no suggestion (in that article) that they feared he was guilty of criminal behaviour.

In which case you have Margaret Thatcher in championing his cause arguing that private actions between consenting adults that are entirely legal should not prevent a man being recognised for his charity work. i.e. a rejection of moralising over his perceived promiscuity. This is entirely consistent with her positioning as a classical liberal.

If there was any evidence officials warned her about the criminal allegations that came to the publics attention after his death this would of course be a completely different matter.

I agree her relationship with Pinochet is a far, far tougher thing to defend but is a straw man in terms of this discussion.

TheHoneyBadger · 28/02/2014 06:09

the security wasn't lax they just didn't give a fuck about young girls being molested. they knew exactly what he was much as politicians would have known what cyril smith was. they just didn't care.

these are the big issues that need addressing rather than whether a woman in her 60's worked for a group which had involvements that she wished they hadn't but wasn't directly involved with herself 40 years ago.

i wonder what is being hidden behind this distraction?

TheHoneyBadger · 28/02/2014 06:13

they don't say he was a paedophile because they wouldn't have considered him one in reality - he was a chap who liked fucking little girls and the security forces (like judges even today) would have seen those girls as asking for it etc and willing participants. clearly also what they committed to paper in ambiguous terms would have been explained verbally a lot more clearly and no doubt with photographic evidence and documents from the screening.

it's odd that we think a prime minister might not have been 'up to speed' with little details like child abuse of a man she spent regular time with and wanted to knight but we expect a 20yo lawyer to know the ins and outs of every group affiliated with the organisation she did legal work for. especially seeing as one had bloody dossiers given to her on the paedophile.

SelectAUserName · 28/02/2014 06:39

I lived through the 70s and I agree with those who have said the cultural, social and sexual mores of the time were different. That is not the same as saying paedophilia, in the true sense of the word, was widely acceptable and I think the fact that when PIE's ideals WERE given the oxygen of publicity and exposed to some form of scrutiny, they were seen as abhorrent and subsequently shut down, confirms that to be the case.

It isn't helpful though to apply 2014 standards to 1970s attitudes and decisions. Today, a paedophile is THE bogeyman extraordinaire, the most demonised creature of our society (well, possibly along with an Islamic fundamentalist). Back then, the term and the concept, as we understand it now, wasn't in wide usage. You had your local Dirty Old Man and your pervert, but they were as much figures of fun / ridicule as they were of fear. In my experience, the understanding of what they might actually DO was vague, formless, unexplained. This was a generation who hadn't yet lived through the cumulative effects of the care home child abuse scandals, the Roy Whitings of the world (so far as I am aware, the term "paedophile" hadn't been applied to e.g. the Moors Murderers at this point, despite the obvious sexual element of those crimes - it just wasn't in that sort of general use), Operation Ore and the power of Internet pornography.

I would also say that ironically, while the word itself wasn't in widespread use, there was probably more of a distinction in those days between true paedophilia and fancying teenagers, whereas society nowadays tends to apply the term to anyone who has sexual activity with someone below the age of consent. Today, if a man sleeps with a girl aged 15 years and 364 days, someone will call him a paedo. Back then, there was more of a blind eye turned. A post-pubescent girl (and the average age of hitting puberty was higher than it is today) who dressed older, wore make-up and was sexually "aware" was judged to "know what she was doing". Mandy Smith would have passed for 18 in appearance when the Bill Wyman story broke, had apparently consented and so a lot of shoulders were shrugged. It was shocking, but I remember it being presented in certain media quarters as "titillatingly shocking" rather than "morally reprehensible" IYSWIM. There wasn't the same widespread understanding or agreement about the inability of children to consent - you could argue it was some of the uncomfortable questions raised by PIE's activities which partially informed our current thinking on this point - and so between that, and the power wielded by men, cases of post-pubertal but underage and nominally consensual sex were rarely, if ever prosecuted.

Although I wasn't personally involved in politics or civil rights activism at that time, I can understand through my knowledge of those times, how an organisation like the NCCL, given what it stood for, could - without the luxury of hindsight - come to think that PIE's agenda should at least be considered/discussed, even if the ideas were morally repugnant to the individuals. I can easily imagine that there were probably some very of-the-age conversations along the lines of "I don't agree with what you say, but I defend to the death your right to say it". That isn't the same as saying I agree with or condone what was done, but the abhorrent nature of paedophilia doesn't blind me to the historical context in which it was done.

I think Harriet Harman is being badly advised by party advisors who have misjudged the situation, who possibly have assumed that the antipathy towards the DM following the Milliband Sr debacle would carry them through this issue and who seem unable to appreciate that an acknowledgement of "I'm sorry, we did what we thought was right at the time but of course, looking back, we were very wrong" regardless of the timings of this document and that statement and the other submission yadda yadda yadda would be more greatly respected than her response to date.

Lazyjaney · 28/02/2014 07:23

Loving all the straw manning and derailing attempts on here now, almost a whiff of desperation!

To return to the matter at hand, now that Hewitt has apologised, it makes Harman's desperate dissembling stand out even more, and the suspicion that she is hiding something even stronger.

We've not heard much about Dromey so far, but as he's her husband might that be where to look?

Martorana · 28/02/2014 08:20

"To return to the matter at hand, now that Hewitt has apologised, it makes Harman's desperate dissembling stand out even more, and the suspicion that she is hiding something even stronger.

We've not heard much about Dromey so far, but as he's her husband might that be where to look?"

You might want to ask to have that post removed- it is definitely libellous.

nauticant · 28/02/2014 08:26

That's from a poster complaining about straw men!

It's clear that some posters loathe HH and want any dirt to stick but this should be based on fact and not based on stuff made up to fill any gaps.

TheHoneyBadger · 28/02/2014 08:27

you might also want to consider a career writing salacious tittle tattle filled allusions based on hate 'articles' for the DM.

nennypops · 28/02/2014 08:29

It is in no way derailing to point out the double standards attached to this little witchhunt. The whole thing is orchestrated by the Mail, which is essentially trying for payback for Leveson and desperate to try to stop Labour winning the next election. It has demonstrated over and over again that it is happy to sexualise and exploit children for the titillation of its more dodgy readers. And it has demonstrated that it is happy to close its eyes to right wing establishment figures who in turn closed their eyes to Thatcher. However, it holds its hands up in pious horror about what the job Harman took as a junior employee thirty years ago.

This thread is about why people aren't obediently following the Mail line on this. Therefore all those issues are directly on topic, aren't they?

Lazyjaney · 28/02/2014 08:43

"you might also want to consider a career writing salacious tittle tattle filled allusions based on hate 'articles' for the DM"

As opposed to writing straw man apologia for HH? And tryingbto shut up opposition by making spurious accusations of libel?

There is a case to be answered for here, all the others have apologised now, so why is HH dissembling?

TheHoneyBadger · 28/02/2014 08:46

what straw man arguments are you actually talking about? because as grammatically difficult as i find it to write you seem to be presenting a straw-strawman.

nauticant · 28/02/2014 08:53

We get that you'd like HH to apologise Lazyjaney. So assuming that she says:

I did X, it was wrong, I apologise

what is the specific act X that did that requires her to apologise? What is it that she actually did?

Martorana · 28/02/2014 09:00

Not trying to shut you up by telling you that your last post was libellous. Just telling you that suggesting that somebody is a paedophile on no evidence at all is libel and you might want to be careful.

Lazyjaney · 28/02/2014 09:31

^^
I didn't say that though, that's what your nasty little mind read. Not all men are pedophiles you know.

Martorana · 28/02/2014 09:34
Grin
hackmum · 28/02/2014 09:51

ManifestoMT:

"Saville was also great mates with prince Charles aswell don't forget. He acted as di and Charlie's marriage councillor .."

That worked out well. Smile

MsCuddy · 28/02/2014 10:06

I'm not sure if anyone has already posted Shaun Leys report from yesterday but just incasethey havent, i'll post it.

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p01t01rb

Its well worth a listen and i thought it was very balanced.

merrymouse · 28/02/2014 10:14

As far as I can see, nobody has hidden anything. The PIE were openly joining and attempting to influence these organisations.

This was all public information at the time that Harman was a high profile new MP in the 1980's.

falaaalaaa · 28/02/2014 10:24

Thanks for that link, MrsCuddy.

merrymouse · 28/02/2014 10:34

"We've not heard much about Dromey so far, but as he's her husband might that be where to look?"

What is it that you are looking for? We have heard that he opposed them at an AGM before Harman joined.

Martorana · 28/02/2014 10:53

Right. I am going to ask again.

What has Harman done that she should apologise for?

MsCuddy · 28/02/2014 11:13

My personal view is she is someone who put the progression of her career before the welfare of children and someone who did nothing to kick this vile group to the kerb and shut their platform down when she joined the NCCL. She was a passive observer who chose to have no opinion either way on PIE to negate her moral responsibility.

The NCCL was her first step on the path to Politics, she should now apologise for bad judgement? being young and naive? being a power driven megalomaniac for all i care, but to dismiss the questions asked by the DM and state that she has nothing to apologise for shows her bloody arrogance and is a total smack in the face to all those victims of abuse over the past 40 years.

nauticant · 28/02/2014 11:15

When was the day when HH became aware of the affiliation and decided to ignore it knowing the nature of PIE? Could you also link to any supporting evidence? Thanks.

MsCuddy · 28/02/2014 11:18

I'm not sure the exact date nauticant, you could always contact the DM and ask them to add it to the list of questions that she refuses to answer Hmm