To not believe that female boss = bitch

[justwondering72]

Yesterday, while doing the ironing, I watched a Ted talk of Sheryl Sandberg talking about women in business. One of the things she spoke about was how men and women getting ahead are labelled differently ie that men are labelled as assertive, ambitious etc and women - while displaying the same types of behavior - are labelled as bossy, selfish etc. I nodded along.

Then I spoke to some people about it and was regaled with story after story of how mean and bitchy female bosses are! My SIL being bullied by two female bosses, a friend who felt that her female boss deliberately held her back to 'serve her time' in a position, while her male bosses were pushing her forward. Then to top it off, I went to a talk last night given by the ex-head of communications for a large EU body, a woman. Her attitude was that to get ahead she was 'one of the boys'. I asked her whether she felt it was possible to get to her very high level without being one of the boys... Her depressing answer was that she enjoyed working with teams of men and that most of the women she worked with at that level were unpleasant, difficult and seemed to feel that they had worked so hard to get where they were, they were not going to make it easier for anyone else.

So AIBU to agree with Sandberg, and to believe that women getting ahead in business are not 'bossy bitches', but rather they are labelled as such because they display ' male' characteristics of being ambitious and assertive?

Just finished reading Sandberg's book and I totally agree with you!

I've had more female bosses than male, and one total bitch of a female boss.
Guess there are just good and bad bosses really.

I don't believe it either but I have to say I have had far less issues with my male bosses than my female ones.

I've only had two nasty bosses, one male, one female. The difference between then though was that the man was upfront about being nasty, so you knew where you stood with him. The woman was sweetness and light to everyone's face, and bitched about them as people and as workers behind their backs.

Obviously can't extrapolate from that to colour everyone, and I've had great female bosses and males bosses too. But my views would be coloured by my experience, and I far preferred the bad male boss to the bad female boss.

I do think some women feel they have to put across the "ball breaker" image to be successful in a traditionally male industry - which obviously has repercussions on the way staff feel about them.

I don't agree. I've had some amazing female bosses, a couple of rubbish ones, and a couple of rubbish male bosses as well, who clearly had something to prove. But I work in a predominantly female environment anyway, so maybe its the other way round, where the males do stand out more if they get it wrong. Hmm, interesting.

The worst boss I have ever had was male.

The best female.

And many in between of both sexes.

The assumption is bollocks.

Completely agree with the posters who say women have to be representative of their sex, so instead of a rubbish female boss just being a rubbish boss, it becomes 'all women are rubbish bosses'

For the record I have had one appalling female boss and I have a theory about her. She was a very senior woman in a very toxic culture, but actually she had a very moral core. She clearly wasn't happy with some of the things that she did/had to do to satisfy the demands of the culture, so she developed a persona - it wasn't really 'her' which made her into a complete nightmare. A year or so after working for her I did some psychometric testing and the tester was talking about how if you aren't able to work in your 'natural' style, ie you had to adopt a persona, it was incredibly stressful for you. And I honestly believe there was a lot of that going on: this woman couldn't be herself in the culture, so she changed herself, so she put herself into further stress.

FWIW as I became more senior in the organisation I noticed some of that creeping into my own behaviour (although I was a wonderful boss!) but I did start to become much more Machiavellian and a political 'operator'. Not things I'm proud of. But things I did to rise in the male-centric bully-boy culture of the organisation.

I would suggest many of the terrible male bosses I came across in the same company suffered from the same thing.

Anyway, I'm probably derailing. No, I don't believe that female boss = bitch - YANBU.

I think part of it is that we don't expect certain behaviours in women and so we see them as negative.

Also if we have a bad female boss, we see them as representative of their sex. If I had a pound for every time someone cites Mrs T as a reason why women in politics won't be helpful to women (rolls eyes).

I also wonder if part of it is that women have to be so much hardier, assertive and thick skinned to make it into management and stay there. The ones that do rise are often a breed apart. Whereas perfectly ordinary men can manage it.

It's all to do with who they are, not what's between their legs.

Christ. I know a hell of a lot of weak immature male bosses desperate to be one of the lads with no sensitivity what so ever. The female bosses I have had have all been much more mature, hard working and conscientious relying on actual work product delivery as well as just "client relationships" (ie bribery with tickets to the cup final). Some I have not liked but some have been amazing mentors and some have suffered the most horrendous sexual harrassment (one was told that despite having a baby she still had to meet her annual KPI's and is constantly criticised because she has some weekly time in her diary to spend with her daughter by idiots who do not understand that no this is not the only time she spends with her daughter just a very special sacrosanct time for them both).

YANBU. I always assume that people who make negative generalisations about women bosses have something wrong with them in terms of personality, ability to deliver, work well with others etc.

I have been bullied at work by female bosses but not male ones and even the ones who haven't gone that far have been vile. It's not even about having to be a ball breaker to get to that position - the women I have worked for haven't had to fight to get to that position any more than the men have.

All of the best bosses I've had saw the work environment as one where teamwork and support were important, who valued their workers, and who had high standards for themselves and their teams.

All of the worst bosses I've had were manipulative, aggressive, paranoid, and made excuses for their own shoddy behaviour and/or work.

I couldn't make a gender call on these behaviours; they have been exhibited by men and women in each case.

I agree with Minnie, the behaviour of men is usually predictable and you can see them coming. Women, on the other hand, seem to use underhand and nasty methods. I've worked with an awful man but I've worked with many more bitchy women.

It does seem to be rooted in insecurities, they think they have something to prove and use comparisons and competition to prove themselves.

This isn't how I assume all women in business work, but it has been my experience so far. I think it depends on the nature of the business and the intensity of competition for promotion, job security etc.

OP, YANBU. It really annoys me when people make these sweeping statements. It's like they are seeking out examples to reinforce stereotypes. I've had male and female bosses - they have all been individuals, and some better than others. Why would I make generalisations about them based on gender?

I can only speak from my own experience, but; I've worked for a woman boss twice in my life and I wouldn't consider doing so again under any circumstances.

I don't think a female boss is always as a bitch. I also don't think women are labeled as bitches just because of their gender or because they display male characteristics (that would imply that anyone with male characteristic is a bitch?).

I have had several bosses, both male and female. About 50% have been female and I can only call one of them a bitch. But that's not because of her gender or any male characteristics - she is just a bitch due to her behavior and how she treats people. I find this to be true for most people, male or female, bosses or team members, family or friends.

Mainly going by this thread, it would appear that female bosses are on a par with men as regards being the boss. Which is a pity.

Hmm, the most vicious, nasty, backstabbing bullying bosses I've ever had were both women. Whereas the most incompetent bosses I've ever had were both men.

Overall the best boss I've ever had was a woman, and she was widely disliked for being like a man ie she was straight talking and assertive, rather than being nice to your face and crushing you behind your back. I thought she was wonderful, I knew where I stood with her, and she was competent and made sure she knew what was going on. She, however, was bullied out of her position by her (male) boss, and replaced by a less competent man.

What I do think is interesting is how many of my female colleagues preferred the backstabbing malicious female bosses to the straightforward female boss. There was a feeling amongst the female staff that whilst the bullying boss directed all her venom towards her chosen victim, the rest of the staff could just be thankful that it wasnt them and ignore it, like it was fine to sacrifice one person for the sake of an easier life for everyone else. I find that a pretty depressing attitude tbh.

'Bitch' is also a word that is used exclusively about women.

Men who exhibit the same characteristics are not called bitches.

Is it possible to have this debate without even using the word bitch I wonder?

Maybe it is because some employees expect that a female boss will be 'softer', asking about your personal problems, super flexible towards mothers and the boss is just erm normal boss who has to put bussiness first they get disapointed.
It happens with race too. My dh has an employee who is expecting to be treated better because him and dh are the same ethnicity. When he is not, he is shocked.

My joint best bosses, one male and one female.
My joint worse bosses, one male and one female!

Minnie, I disagree about the men are more honest thing. The most overt liar I have known was a man. Whenever he made a mistake, or thought he had, he would out and out lie to slur someone else and save his skin. He once thought he had given me wrong information, so he denied to the head of our dept about having ever spoken to me on the topic in hand. Turned out the information he gave was correct after all. Made him look a complete dick!

I don't judge my boss by their gender, I judge by how they manage me and the department and whether they deserve respect for their actions. I don't expect a female boss to be 'kinder' or a male to be 'more assertive' or whatever stereotypes may be relevant. I just expect fairness, consistency, approachability, appropriate communication, willingness to take responsibility and give credit and someone I can learn from and model myself on. Occasionally I get it.

I've had good and bad male bosses, and good and bad female bosses, pretty much in equal measure. I've been told I was the best boss someone ever had; equally I'm sure there are other people who didn't rate my style of managing them.

There aren't many senior nurses who are absolutely lovely to work for. The bullying culture in the NHS has to be experienced to be believed. And, amazingly, most of them are women.