to think cyclists ought to sit a test before being allowed on the road?

[SantanaLopez]

I live on a route popular with amateur cyclists. Yet again this morning another group of folk were causing absolute havoc on a two lane road. They aren't dressed properly, they don't signal, they don't even look where they're going. One man was weaving along instead of cycling in a straight line!

So while I have a cup of tea and a cake (for medicinal reasons)- aibu to think that they should have to be tested before being allowed on the road? I know drivers are the biggest hazard, but safety works both ways!

prettybird
"I have come across many, many more numpties in cars (who have passed tests although you wonder how ) and quite a few numpty pedestrians - but am not seriously suggesting that pedestrians should take a test (just pointing out the logic that if you expect cyclists to do so, then you should expect pedestrians who have the temerity to be on the Highway should do so too)."

And yet you seem to have forgotten the numpty cyclists in your list, something that many cyclists seem to do.

I am a driver and a cyclist.

I have nearly been killed twice by drivers attempting to motor through the space I was occupying (in both cases turning left from the right hand lane as I was attempting to continue forwards).

I regularly see cyclists in London at night with no hi-vis and wonder how long they will survive.

Someone got knocked off their bike locally and killed by a white van driver doing an illegal u turn without checking the road not so long ago.

On my way walking to work I have had a couple of near-misses from cyclists zipping round a corner and through a red light at speed while I have been crossing the road.

Basically there are idiots everywhere. Drivers and cyclists both. You can't stop someone being an idiot by putting them through a course. They will still not be capable of acting with consideration for others. Plenty of posts on this thread (not the OP) demonstrate this mindset perfectly.

OP clearly understands that not all cyclists are idiots. I don't think compulsory training will help though. If you jump red lights at speed without giving yourself time to avoid pedestrians; if you don't take care to make yourself visible; then you are an idiot and a course will not help.

It may sound defeatist but I think all you can do is watch for the idiots.

I didn't include cyclists directly (I did indirectly as I said "more" in relation to numpty drivers) because I was contrasting my real life experience. The number of times I have had to make an emergency stop on my bike because someone has pulled out across me (despite my hi-viz jacket and flashing light). I might have right of way, but I would come across worse if I went into the side of them. Dh has been knocked off his bike into a hedge by a car squeezing past him on a country-ish road just to the south of Glasgow (a linking road between two more main roads a whole 3/4 of a mile long, so the car saved maybe 2 seconds by not waiting until it was safe).

As has been pointed out, the vast majority of cyclists are also drivers and so have already passed a driving test. I do think that the driving test should include a greater element of cycle awareness - which would benefit both drivers and cyclists alike.

But how would you deal with Under 17s - who are free to go out on their own and shouldn't have to be chaperoned, which was the implication of an earlier post.

Numpty cyclists are stupid. However, in the majority of cases it is themselves that they will kill or injure (Darwin's Law). Unfortunately, numpty drivers are protected by over a ton of metal and their numptiness their mistakes have a far greater propensity to kill or injure others - pedestrians and cyclists alike.

prettybird

What I find strange about these threads isn't that cars are more dangerous, or that pedestrians cause accidents.

Its a general propensity of the majority of cyclists to blame others, Yes car drivers cause more accidents/deaths yes some pedestrians cause accidents/deaths, But on here the instant response to "a cyclist did something stupid" or "almost hit a cyclist who had no lights" or any other "bad cyclist" thread is "cars drivers do this", "Pedestrians do that".

There is even a car thread at the moment where car drivers are complaining about bad car drivers, you never see that with cycle threads.

Pan and several others always post about respecting other road users whether they be cyclists, motorists or pedestrians, that is where we should be.

Someone once posted the hierarchy of the roads, lorries/buses then cars the motorbikes, then cycles, then pedestrians. I get the feeling from a large group of cyclists that they would put themselves on the bottom of the list, they see themselves as the most vulnerable even below pedestrians.

I really do find it strange how negatively cyclists react to a test. I don't see it as a punishment or anything like that. I envisioned more of a positive measure- let's offer lessons, let's have a test, let's try and higher standards together without leaving it up to the individual.

This morning I encountered:
a group of 5 in a 2 and a 3. They did not move into single file when they saw me coming.

Another cyclist overtook me on the left when I was waiting to turn. Heart stopped for a second.

SantanaLopez
"Another cyclist overtook me on the left when I was waiting to turn. Heart stopped for a second. shock"

Remember though that this isn't (according to some posters) dangerous as he is a cyclist and above such things.

I wish the cyclist that knocked me over on a crossing when the green man was on had taken a test. She definitely needs to learn that oh so complicated rule of the road that a RED LIGHT MEANS STOP!

I have never argued that cyclists shouldn't show respect - I always make sure to follow the Highway Code (unless it is unsafe to do so - there is one complicated junction I use where the only safe place for a cyclist to wait for the lights to change and yes, I do wait is ahead of the white line) and hope - but don't expect - other road users (cars, cyclists, pedestrians) to do the same. Ds has been taught the same.

What I (and others) have argued is how pointless, counter-productive and costly a test would be.

There really does need to be a change in culture in this country towards cyclists - who do end up being defensive when even the ASA ignorantly call a cycling organisation "socially irresponsible" for producing an ad which had a cyclist in the correct position on the road and told it that the cyclist should be no more than 0.5m from the kerb, so that a car could pass without crossing the white line - going against the Highway Code . To be fair not that I should be on the ASA, it has now, following a furore, withdrawn the ban temporarily, while it reviews its judgement as it "might have got the road positioning advice wrong"

What I (and others) have argued is how pointless, counter-productive and costly a test would be.

But you haven't really. All you have said is that cars are worse.

Cost was suggested, fair enough.
It was said that a test would put people off. This hasn't be explained. People still drive despite the driving test!

*been.

I (and others) have mentioned cost, I (and others) have mentioned pointlessness, given that the vast majority of cyclists have already passed a driving test as they are also drivers, I (and others) have mentioned the negative consequences (both health and traffic) of putting people off cycling, I (and others) have asked how you are going to tell with kids who want to cycle and whether they would have to be "chaperoned" and thereby putting them off a healthy pursuit, I (and others) have asked why, if cyclists were to be tested, why shouldn't pedestrians (or horse riders) since they too venture onto the Highway.....

I have suggested that there should be a larger cycling element within the current driving test to increase awareness.

....I could go on, but I'm getting bored of the negative attitude that is so prevalent on Mumsnet in this country towards cyclists.

If it weren't so cold and miserable, I'd go out for a cycle ride. For every extra cyclist on the road, a few more car drivers get used to the idea that they might come across a cyclist round the next corner when they speed along country roads. I am pleased that over the last 12 years since I started cycling again more regularly (and commuting on my bike), I have seen the number of cyclists increase significantly.

BTW: I am fully aware of the risks of cycling. My mother died 5 years after a cycling accident as a result of the head injury she sustained. Her fault/no-one's fault - she fell off when she hit some sand and skidded on a fast downhill corner on a cycling holiday, broke her pelvis and then landed on her head. I will always make every effort to cycle safely.

I'm off to do some knitting in her memory.

I (and others) have mentioned cost- good point

I (and others) have mentioned pointlessness, given that the vast majority of cyclists have already passed a driving test as they are also drivers,- many of you have also gone on at length about how different cycling and driving are, which makes this point invalid.

I (and others) have mentioned the negative consequences (both health and traffic) of putting people off cycling, Why would a test put people off? Why wouldn't they feel more confident having passed a test and received some training?

I (and others) have asked how you are going to tell with kids who want to cycle and whether they would have to be "chaperoned" and thereby putting them off a healthy pursuit, it's a good point, and one that would need to be thought about.

I (and others) have asked why, if cyclists were to be tested, why shouldn't pedestrians (or horse riders) since they too venture onto the Highway.....

You have been repeatedly told how different cyclists and pedestrians are. Do you see a pedestrian joining a line of traffic? Do you see a pedestrian overtaking cars? NO.

I am sorry about your mum

needthemoney

"I wish the cyclist that knocked me over on a crossing when the green man was on had taken a test."

The motorist that knocked down my 11yo cousin on a crossing when the green man was on HAD taken a test. Tests don't stop idiots. I doubt there is a single cyclist who doesn't already know that they should stop at red lights.

I am glad you are well enough to relate the tale. My cousin was in a coma for 3 months and left permanently physically and mentally handicapped. The driver got some points on her licence, when she was eventually caught - she didn't stop at the time. Somehow she hadn't noticed knocking an 11 y.o. boy into the air.

prettybird so sorry about your mum . The message I personally would like to get across is that however cyclists cycle, the only person that is likely to get seriously injured or killed is themselves so WHY motorists in particular (who will NEVER get hurt by a cyclist, and at worst may get held up for 1 or 2 minutes once a month) are so ANTI cyclists, and why they often drive in ways that intimidate and endanger them? (not saying you do that OP but there is a significant minority that does.... some through ignorance, some deliberately, astonishingly).

I honestly can't see what a cycling test would achieve.

I agree with less that pedestrians are also road users and the fact that many drivers don't appreciate that is frightening and betrays a very entitled attitude to expensive roads that have been paid for by all of us. In many places there are no pavements and all car drivers should be very aware of pedestrians along the side of the road and/or crossing.

The message I personally would like to get across is that however cyclists cycle, the only person that is likely to get seriously injured or killed is themselves

This is what makes me so scared. There is going to be an accident soon on this road (near me) and it's not going to the car driver who comes off worst.

I honestly can't see what a cycling test would achieve.
Good cyclists would obviously have nothing to worry about.
Mediocre cyclists would be trained to adopt proper road positioning and what to do in certain situations.
Bad cyclists are banned from the roads.
Win-win, no?

I really (honestly and genuinely) can't see the similarity between a pedestrian and a cyclist. When have you ever seen a pedestrian take their place in a line of traffic?

"pedestrians are also road users and the fact that many Cyclists don't appreciate that is frightening and betrays a very entitled attitude to expensive roads that have been paid for by all of us. In many places there are no pavements and all cyclists should be very aware of pedestrians along the side of the road and/or crossing."

I have adjusted your last paragraph profplum

prettybird

I am sorry about your mum, but due to a dangerous cyclist it is unlikely that I will ever cycle again. I could be pissed of and completely anti cyclist (frankly I believe that I have a right to be) but I know that it was one of a large minority that caused and still causes me pain.

As for not having a cycling test, we used to have them at school, the old cycling proficiency test and just FYI we also had a policemen come in to talk to us about the green cross code, both of these seem to have stopped.

I took a test thirty years ago As have many many cyclists that also drive and walk

I came to this thread without blame but to try and explain how some cyclist group and meet and think about other road users and how to make everyone's life a bit easier

Possibly you didn't read those posts and as a motorist why would I come here to through blame at myself

Santana when you phrase your "message" with words like You have been repeatedly told, you are likely to alienate people. You yourself have been very patiently and politely given pages of explanation which you dismiss. You lack empathy. That is your problem. It is not the problem of the cyclists. It is a problem pertaining to you, and to people like you, and how you deal with other human beings. You cannot see it, because you consider yourself superior to those human beings and think you understand things that they do not.

It would be highly dangerous for all users to change emphasis from drivers of motorised vehicles being at risk to placing the duty of care on the more vulnerable road user. It would make the roads less safe for all, because it would encourage incompetent drivers to drive negligently, because the consequences of doing so would be less. It would also mean less cyclists on the road, so impact on health benefits.

We do have roads where drivers will not be held up by cyclists and other slower road traffic - motorways. Otherwise, the roads are shared.

To expect cyclists to complete a test would require a change in the law and place an onerous burden on vulnerable road users. It would mean the UK dealt with this issue in the opposite way to the rest of the world, and you have to ask why that is? Are the British less able to cope with cyclists on their roads than the rest of the world?

To me, this is the way people used to think 20 or 30 years ago, when we had less advanced research into the impact of constantly pushing the car culture at the expense of other forms of transport and encouraging people to be healthy. To me, it is not a modern or intelligent approach.

However, since where you live has such a low life expectancy, not least due to the prevalent "lifestyle" illnesses afflicting the Glasgow area, it is quite likely that you will be dead at least 10 years before the equivalent keen cyclist, possibly much more. That might not bother you, but don't you feel some guilt at saddling the next generation with that burden of poor attitude towards health and exercise?

Santana Do you not think a test would go some way to removing the numpties?

Since the driving test has not stopped you from driving, I would say no.

That's more than enough insults from you, LMA.

I don't t like the insults or nasty posts from either side of the argument and wish they would stop from both sides

I can see why LMA is getting frustrated. She and IvyKaty have made many reasoned arguments that have been left unaddressed by others.

Sadly, I doubt that some posters on this thread are ever going to view cyclists as anything other than a nuisance. Let me emphasise for a final time that that is the very worst threat that cyclists pose to drivers - a slight nuisance - whereas a significant minority of drivers pose a threat to the life and safety of cyclists and pedestrians. There is simply no comparison between driving and cycling. That is why one requires a test and the other does not. Furthermore, having a test will not stop the minority of cyclists who ride on pavements and jump red lights as they already know they shouldn't so a test will teach them nothing new. What it will teach them is about adopting a primary position, not hand signalling all the time and to ride two by two when in groups, and to look out for and avoid manhole covers and potholes etc - however it is really the motorists who need to be taught those things as those are the very things about which motorists, including Santana, often complain.

Incidentally, cyclists also pose a negligible threat to pedestrians compared with the threat posed by car drivers - both as to the extent and as to the frequency of injury.

To be fair, the OP was rude. So if you can't take it back, why hand it out? She has been rude about me, rude about my DH, rude about my friends (two of whom have been killed by dangerous drivers out cycling) and called us all by analogy numpties, while displaying a poor attitude towards driving and other road users. Cycling is not illegal, so why behave as if it is and then complain about yet more people (drivers as well as cyclists) because they refuse to accept your arguments?

Just how many people do the cyclist haters intend to find unreasonable?

LessMissAbs - it really is best not to be rude back if they want to be rude lease don't take it to heart . There is a poster further up who has been nasty about cyclists in general. But often as has happened in this case the post was ignored and the poster left the thread without posting again. In that particular instance it is probably for the best as there will not be any reasoning from that poster as to how uncomfortable it would make anyone feel when on a bike or if they have family on a bike. I have been rude on occasions but feel it doesn't get me anywhere. I try hard to hide cycling threads before I get chance to open them but when I do appear i try and explain the thought fullness of certain groups of cyclists so that hopefully people can see as groups cyclists are trying hard to rub along well with other road users.

On a brighter note British Cycling have announced a ten point plan this morning to get british people cycling and the benefits. it includes cycle training
Cyclists are happier people and nations are happier and if we can do more miles on a bike it would make us all happier and healthier