Racism

[Arealmanithink]

I'm American. .I see a helluva lot of people slagging off Americans.. People that usually proudly proclaim their non racist beliefs.. Sorry but isn't making assumptions about people from another country and stereotyping then .. racism??

And I know the OP incorrectly used racism instead of xenophobia but we all knew what he meant didn't we?

I did want to make some comments but not impressed that the
OP appears to have buggered off so shalt now (flounce), as I feel whats the point.

Maybe its an American thing to start a conversation then ignore it when people are talking to them...

Well, I had a frankly low opinion of Americans (not sure why really) until I spent a month abroad doing TEFL course with a bunch. They were the most interesting, funny and generous people I ever met. I was pleasantly surprised at how open minded they were. I think we are lead to believe that most are very conservative and insular, knowing nothing about the rest of the world and caring even less. Maybe it was just that group were globe trotting liberals, I don't know.

Any way, since then I take care to get to know the individual, not assume a characteristic. That said, a little gentle banter goes a long way.

Just people. Met good, met bad. Just like people. No issues really.

yup - they have very little idea of what's going on in the world. But a friend of mine recently informed me that research said that huge amount of uk secondary kids had no idea where portugual was.

There you go.

Not great that our kids are so ignorant.

Met? Meet!!!

I love the accent

the accent? There are quite a few different American accents. Maybe not as varied as within Britain, but I think you can only talk about accents in the plural, not singular.

We hear so much about what 's going on in the US- the UK press and TV is full of it. Plus of course all the films that come out of the US. We know far more about the US than about other countries, and let's face, it to a liberal British person much of it seems absolutely outrageous. Eg the guns, the crime rate, the death penalty, the terrible problems the poor have accessing health services, the number of extreme right wingers, the evangelical Christian movement...
In addition to this, the fact that the US is powerful and rich means that we don't tend to feel that by criticising Americans we are bullying the underdog.

But Dromedary, what you read in the media is not a particularly accurate representation of a whole country.

Where I live in the US we have legalised gay marriage, we let prisoners vote, we haven't had the death penalty in more than a century, we have schemes that provide access to healthcare for all, we take in refugees and give them cash (not vouchers like they get in the UK), people stop to let you cross the street and wave hello, our gun violence rate is around the same as the UK's. I work for one of the largest companies in the state and we get 28-33 days a year holiday, 8 bank holidays, lots of sick leave, etc etc.

I'm sure none of that is ever reported in the UK press or films.

And bear in mind that Americans get most of their perceptions of British people from the Daily Mail. You probably don't even want to know what unbelievable things I get told about the UK on a regular basis by my colleagues...

I know that there are big differences between the different states, and have some idea of which states have the worst reputations for the things I mentioned. I very much enjoyed my couple of holidays in the US, and was impressed by how helpful people were. And I appreciate that there are different "types" of American and not all should be tarred with the same brush. I hope I wouldn't jump to a stereotyped view if I met someone from the US visiting the UK, for instance, but let's face it if they admitted to being a George Bush supporter then I probably would. And I don't read the Daily Mail - just the Guardian, and listen to BBC Radio 4. There's plenty in there. Unless those sources of information are misreporting wildly, there are huge problems in the US, and it worries me greatly that those in charge of our country seem to be drawing so much inspiration from the US. I would very much prefer to be going in a more continental Europe direction, preferably veering towards Scandinavia. I suppose it's a bit weird for the English seeing what's going on in the US, as in some ways we have a lot in common, and in other ways some of the things that go on in the US are totally outrageous to (many of) us. It's also frustrating that what Americans decide in their own country can have such a big impact on us here.

Its news to me that "slagging off Americans" outside America cannot be racism.

The Crime and Disorder Act 1998 defines a racial group to which a racially aggravated offence can occur as "A racial group means a group of persons defined by reference to race, colour, nationality (including citizenship) or ethnic or national origins.

Civil law, mainly now contained in the Equality Act 2010 defines racial discrimination as per the case Mandla v Dowell-Lee 1983 IRLR 209 as less favourable treatment, either directly or indirectly on grounds of racial or national origin, and in BBC v Souster [2001] IRLR 150, it was found that an English person can be unfairly discriminated against in Scotland - the Court held that as England and Scotland were once separate nations, the English and the Scots have separate national origins and therefore the legislation does cover discrimination between them.

Certainly the law covers people of a national origin who are a minority in the country they are complaining about discrimination.

So, yes, OP, I do consider it racism, not mere xenophobia. I'm honestly a bit shocked that so many people seem to think that racism only covers certain nationalities and not others. Which is racist in itself.

Similarly dromedary I struggle to know what to say to people who support UKIP or Cameron, and I feel embarrassed that my home country has voted in a right wing party intent on dismantling the welfare state and destroying the nhs.

Conversely I feel proud that here in the US we have now voted out some of the worst right wingers in two elections, and are moving things like healthcare in the right direction. Not getting everything right and we have our own equivalents of Nigel Farage here, but as someone who voted liberal in the last two elections, and whose party won, it's a good feeling.

I gather from people who understand US politics better than I do (including American Mumsnetters when the issue was discussed a while back) that Barack Obama and his supporters are way to the right of Cameron. And his time in government has been a damp squib, sadly, and shown up how badly the system works (or doesn't work).
And could you PLEASE tell supporters of UKIP and Cameron exactly what you think of them. They can never be told that too many times.

I gather from people who understand US politics better than I do (including American Mumsnetters when the issue was discussed a while back) that Barack Obama and his supporters are way to the right of Cameron.

Some examples perhaps?

Tbh it's one of those talking points that's trotted out but not based in fact.

There was a thread on US politics on Mumsnet a while back. Comparison between the Tories and the US Democrats isn't my area of expertise, but if you do a search the thread may well still be there. I'm not an apologist for the UK right of course - can't stand them.
Did a quick google, and an article from the Telegraph came up. I'm sure you could find a lot more. This is an extract (and have to go to bed now):
There is no proper Left in American politics even Obama is more Right-wing than Cameron
By Walter Ellis US politics Last updated: March 7th, 2012

332 Comments Comment on this article

Note that Dave is on the Left (Photo: PA)
I want you to imagine a twelve-inch ruler, like the ones those of us of a certain age used to pack in our schoolbags. On the far left, just above the 1, picture Trotsky and his band of crazies; on the far right, at 12, Hitler and Genghis Khan.

Where on this scale would you place David Cameron? Id put him at the seven-inch mark, a little to the right of Clement Attlee but definitely to the left of Tony Blair. This measured approach recognises distinctions down to a tenth of an inch, allowing Ed Miliband to sit fractionally to the left of the Prime Minister and just to the right of Nick Clegg.

Now picture a similar ruler used to define United States politics. A very different, and quite frightening, picture emerges.

Where the House of Commons covers a spread between four and nine, with the majority fitting in between five and seven, the US Congress starts at six and runs all the way up to ten, or even ten-and-a-half. Appropriately, most Democrats are at sixes and sevens; Republicans cluster around nine.

Barack Obama, like my fathers hat size, is seven and an eighth, just to the right of Cameron. Mitt Romney, the Republican most likely to face Obama in Novembers presidential race, is a solid eight; Newt Gingrich, the acerbic former House Speaker, now in ill-tempered retreat, is a nine; but Rick Santorum, the arch-Catholic candidate from Pennsylvania, is not only, like Bo Derek, a Perfect Ten, he is a Ten who throws up at the mere mention of the separation of Church and State.

I lived in America, until recently, teeth are great as those without health insurance have them pulled and dentures fitted, much cheaper.
I went there in a spirit of high hopes and thankfully met amazing people, Americans get irony just don't expect it very minute, every day.
Americans are amazingly open on the superficial, and welcome you, but really don't expect a second invite, you are exotic for a moment.
Those friend you make on a real basis, you mind your p's and q's as in god! We did Find real friends, but it was so confusing, we decided we preferred the slow burn of British people to the full on your are my best bud, but realised real Americans get that.
I loved America and American's they are funny and intelligent just on a satellite delay for Uk humour, hated the fact you just couldn't have a good humoured political debate, only time I did wAs with a republican senator at a friends party! Can't remember who but he had a side kick who was like Orin in Kick'n arse by Fry and Laurie :)

Obama is "right wing" in all the worst ways: killing civilians with drones, increasing the NSA's powers (PRISM), etc.

LessMiss - The act you are quoting says: "(4) In this section “racial group” means a group of persons defined by reference to race, colour, nationality (including citizenship) or ethnic or national origins.
[F4(5)In this section “religious group” means a group of persons defined by reference to religious belief or lack of religious belief.]"

Note where it says In this section "racial group" means. This is merely their definition of what this act covers, not the real definition of racism. They clearly wanted to include hate crimes against people because of their nationality in this act.

Just like we all know that atheists don't constitute a "religious group" and yet they are included in this act's definition of religious groups.

Nationality is not race and a simple definition search on Google would correct you on that.

And if you still disagree, I would be happy for you to try to determine the race of my DC who hold 3 nationalities

it's not even xenophobia is it? that is a fear of outsiders/foreigners etc i thought. as such it would be generalised to all others and mostly experienced when those others were on your territory - such as finland was always accused of.

disliking one nations political, financial and military behaviour does not a xenophobe make.

unless me saying christ i can't believe what passes as law in saudi arabia does not make a xenophobe. to me saudi and america have a lot more in common than say sweden and america.

sorry massive coherence fail there - unless me not like saudi law makes me a xenophobe.

oh and i would rather have more in common with sweden than saudi/america.

Fair enough.. Racism is probably the wrong word. If I had spoken about just black americans or just indian-americans. I'm not convinced that xenophobia is the right word either. Anti Americanism?? Hmmm.. I suspect that a lot of it is just jealousy rather than a deep seated dislike..
(Jumps back into foxhole)

"I suspect that a lot of it is just jealousy rather than a deep seated dislike"

This here is why your fellow countrymen get a lot of stick.

Cote D'Azur Note where it says In this section "racial group" means. This is merely their definition of what this act covers, not the real definition of racism. They clearly wanted to include hate crimes against people because of their nationality in this act. Nationality is not race and a simple definition search on Google would correct you on that

So you are saying that criminal and civil law on racially aggravated crimes and racial discrimination which define race as including nationality are not relevant to whether a person is racially abused? Have I got that right?

The law doesn't apply, or even have any relevance, to comments such as the OP describes, nor to discussions on mumsnet?

There is a different definition of what "race" includes on mumsnet because people get hung up on the word "race" to define it very strictly to include only the main races in the world, and no white person, for example, in any predominately white country, could ever be racially discriminated against or harassed?

Err...

This is merely their definition of what this act covers, not the real definition of racism

Aha. So the "real definition of racism" conveniently allows plenty of people in a country to be racist, as long as they pick on other white nationalities?

Honestly can't believe a few of the racist comments on this thread. Defining "race" obsessively strictly as an excuse for racism, that's a new one.

There are ways of discussing cultural differences without being racist about it.

YaNBU. .this thread has lots of posts proving your point.

The same small minded prejudice happens about the Scots on independence threads.

yeah i'm massively jealous of living in a country that spends billions on war yet can't even be arsed to save it's own people and help them survive and rebuild after a disaster like katrina. massively jealous of living in a country where legitimate respected politicians try to pass laws to disallow abortion and put women in jail for having a miscarriage. massively jealous of living in a country where when your partner dies of cancer you're left with hundreds of thousands of debt for their failed treatment.

you got me!