To think most children are socially motivated

[Sparklysilversequins]

and want to fit in and that even where there is a background of indulgent parenting, a disruptive child who appears unwilling to partake in every day activities, especially at nursery school and primary school and is "disruptive" or "aggressive" is far more likely to have some kind of SN rather than the default position of "spoiled brat" so often to be found both here on MN and in RL?

I see it repeatedly on threads, people getting irritated because other posters suggest that SN may be a factor. "NO some kids are just brats!" Maybe so but I have yet to come across a really badly behaved child where there wasn't something else going on behind the scenes, whether that be SN or really neglectful and poor parenting.

Of course all bets are off when they hit secondary school age and develop minds of their own

Have you not? Try working in a school. There are some wilfully obnoxious children out there. (note the 'some')

But "spoiled brats" tend to have parents who know the price of everything and the value of nothing. In short, they try to buy their childs affection but spend little actual time with them, thus teaching them nothing with regard to behaviour and social skills.

I could present you one right now. Two actually. A matching pair. Brat-the-Older has every conceivable gaming device, designer clothes, new phones and a set of parents who think the sun shines out of his backside. Brat-the-Younger is going the same way and was thrown out of cubs because of his behaviour. Neither have any SEN. A large dollop of indulgence, but no SEN, and no 'family' problems either.

BTW - they are terribly popular because they are quite bright - and the less able ones like the class disruption the more able ones can create.

Not to mention going to The Brats house means they can play with all the latest gizmos. So you see The Brats aren't actually popular because they are obnoxious, its because they have learned you can buy peoples affection with expensive toys and endless McDonalds trips. All in all, they are highly unpopular with their peer group.

It's a bit of a merry-go-round really.

I have worked in a school . Years ago but I did.

I don't agree in the slightest- tho I do also hate the MN habit of labelling NT kids who don't behave impeccably as "spoilt brats".

We are all individuals with our own personalities. Some children are far less easy going and compliant than others- just the same as some adults are. Also, children do also mature at different stages too- so some primary children are still stuck in the egocentric toddler stage whilst others will have moved on.

Sorry, OP you've inspired a rant:

I don't bloody care any more whether DS has SN. I can hardly think of a more boring thing to dwell upon.
I know that the constant talk of SN any time I try to discuss his problems is distracting, deeply unpleasant, unproductive, exhausting and depressing.

MNers always rush to say CHILD MUST HAVE SN rather then "He's just a difficult little twerp" which would be so much easier to bear (and productive). I DON'T CARE ANY MORE WHY DS IS THE WAY HE IS. And talk of SN won't help me understand him, either.

It's impossible on MN to get support for a merely difficult child on MN without everyone insisting that you should rush out & get an SN diagnosis Almost every reply is framed in the context of some SN that people are determined to pigeonhole the child into.

I would love to talk about my awkward-bolshy-emotionally immature-unpopular-stroppy DS without folk insisting that I should demand an SN diagnosis from someone and insist on trying to understand DS within that framework.

I can find other websites to talk about his problems, but never on MN.

Is there really no room for kids to exist who are difficult without it being either SN or bad parenting/trauma? Nothing and nobody to blame. Just difficult. Full stop. Difficult.

I HATE the spoilt brats label.

I suppose I am just thinking of behaviours that are quite clearly indicative of other issues but are eagerly dismissed as brattish behaviour. I have a ds with autism and I remember being told that he was manipulative and knew exactly what he was doing when he would leave the classroom and go on runabout when things just became too stressful for him. I was told that and similar by various staff and even his own family members.

I suppose what I am trying to say is that the dismissal of bad behaviour as being spoilt and naughty and the resulting huffing and puffing if anyone suggests SN really hacks me off! Because I had it for years about ds and he was later diagnosed with four different conditions including autism.

I think people just prefer to label children as brats, they seem to actually like doing it and get irritated if they can't.

lijkk now you see I find it directly opposite to that. Everyone gagging to dismiss my child's behaviours as bratty and down to my bad parenting. No one wants to consider SN and I have had family members really yell at me and become furious when I won't agree.

Maybe I'm too scary IRL for anyone to say what they think.
Are your relatives generally bossy-boots stick nosy beak in types in your life?
We do a lot to shield relatives from the worst of DS's behaviour.
Do your other kids have similar problems or just the one?

I think all children are different.

There's a boy in my DC's class. He has had family background problems that sadly for him have played out spectacularly in public so are common knowledge. Unsurprisingly his behaviour can be difficult. Yet despite this, if you see him in various settings, it is clear that his overriding desire is to conform and please and be accepted. It is when that doesn't happen that his behaviour becomes difficult.

Some children are more difficult than others. Not enough credence is given to temperament IMO. I was a difficult child in the sense that from a very young age I simply resented anyone telling me what to do even when those instructions were to do something that I wanted to do anyway. I have been much happier as an adult, with control over my own life and am generally known as a very laid-back, calm and positive person. As a child I was a stubborn, stroppy nightmare. I had no SN and a close to idyllic childhood.

Despite the evidence to the contrary I think most people don't like to cause offence, and the suggestion for a SN assessment is often borne of that. I think that's preferable to labelling a child a spoilt brat, at least certainly in the first instance, and surely it behoves everyone involved in a child's care to at least rule that out before thinking about other ways of addressing difficult behaviour.

All that said, I sometimes think that a little bit more judgement about crap parenting might not be a bad thing...

Is there really no room for kids to exist who are difficult without it being either SN or bad parenting/trauma? Nothing and nobody to blame. Just difficult. Full stop. Difficult.

I agree with this. In much the same way as you get difficult adults. I've worked with loads of them.

I think children differ in how much they care about fitting in with their peers. I was a bit of a loner and had a very suspicious attitude towards anything that could be regarded as conforming to the herd.

Fortunately, I was quite well behaved and even kindly: I just genuinely didn't care about what these other people thought about me as long as they left me alone with my books. If my tendencies had been towards aggression or disruptiveness I don't suppose I would have let their opinion stand in my way either.

Oh I do sound a horrible little ex-brat, don't I? But the truth is, there was nothing wrong with me, I had a happy home life, didn't particularly mind school either- just didn't feel a strong connection to this randomly assembled group of children who were supposed to be my peer group.

(I have got nicer since- honest!)

I think the reality is that not every badly behaved child has SNs or terrible parents or are plain horrible themselves.

Children are learning all the time, they change continuously, one badly behaved child might be lovely the next minute, day, month, year.

Everybody makes mistakes and everyone can learn from then. Nobody learns in exactly the same way at the same time.