To want DS to befriend the naughtiest boy at school?

[Madmartigan]

They are in reception year.DS is a bit borderline naughty himself, but complains to us about another boy in his class, to the point that he sometimes says he doesn't like school any more. I am gutted on several levels.

One, he didn't complain about going to school until recently.

Two, the other boy lives only a few doors away, his mum is friendly and seems like a lovely person. We don't have friends locally, and the mum has suggested meeting up as we live so close.

Three, and as evidence of the nice mum and mitigation of boy's naughtiness, the boy has difficulties, don't know details but the mum (and dad) adopted him about a year ago, he clearly has a huge amount of catching up to do. I get the impression from DS that the other kids don't have much tolerance for this. He says this boy is just pretending not to be able to do things "everyone knows that" he says.

Any tips for encouraging my DS to be more understanding? Should I just leave it alone.

It 100% does sound like the other boy has been given a Bad Name Nanny. I was shocked to find the same thing happened at my DS school too.

Now in the interests of disclosure, actually it really doesn't work between my own DS and the boy at his school (their SN's are very similar so it's like two balls of mercury having a play) but his mother and I are now very good friends and, I hope, I have been able to support her through some of the nastiness which has gone her and her son's way because of this bad name issue.

Children can be given a bad name extremely easily in reception/KS1 classes. I've found it shocking how easily it happens.

I think it's the combination of children who are young, so see things in a very black and white way, and precious parents who are anxious about their children starting school and settling in.

To small children, the fact that they hear X being told off more times than anyone else means that X must be naughty. They see X doing things that they are told not to do because it's naughty, so understandably come to the conclusion that X is naughty. They go home and tell their parents about it, their parents barely know this child but decide that they don't want their child to be friends with X because they want their child to be well behaved, then X is labelled as naughty for the next 6/7 years by their fellow classmates parents and it almost becomes a self fulfilling prophecy.

Thanks, especially to bodygoingsouth. As it goes, work life balance doesn't lend itself to playdates. I was hoping people might have relevant experience and tips to encouraged my ds to be more tolerant. I don't expect him to tolerate being treated badly by any child, but I am troubled that the other boy will be labelled and isolated by his classmates. My DS also does as bit of shoving around in the playground, not acceptable from him either, but he has no difficulty making friends.

My best bet, I think, is to suggest meeting up with mum or both parents for a drink or whatnots with babysitters all round.

Down the line somewhere, perhaps we can loosely bump into them at the park, so the boys are under no obligation. I think that's a while off though, if ever. Thanks to whoever said they get through friends quickly and go off school regularly at this stage. He has enjoyed school this week.

A lot of posters on here sound lovely and genuinely helpful, but there are a number of comments that are so OTT - the OP is right to encourage her son to be tolerant, and without taking on this kid as a project, why not talk through with her ds about including the other boy and so on - it is so refreshing to hear someone wanting to take an approach that recognises that 4 y.o.s shouldn't be labelled. The posters that are suggesting otherwise sound like they are in danger of spoiling their kids - the following comment for example - you can acknowledge your own feelings but overcome them in someone else's interests you know!

'You'd just be sending your child the message that he's should tolerate negative behaviour directed at him, that being naughty in class isn't that big a deal, that his feelings aren't important because someone else has difficulties. And that is wrong on every level.'

'A lot of posters on here sound lovely and genuinely helpful,' .. and then you have the rest of us who have more experience

Have you never had a neighbour or work colleague who was a git/pain in the arse or annoying.Imagine you had to be in the same room as them for 30 hours a week and then were being forced to socialise with them afterwards as well.
If your DS says he doesn't like this kid, he has a reason .Respect that

This makes no sense. Your child complains in particular about how another's child upsetting him so your response? Invite them over? Not understanding that at all. Your child is being given the message that strangers who " seem nice" or may have issues take priority over his feelings? He will soon learn not to tell you anything.

I was new in town and got friendly with another newcomer who I really clicked with. She was having problems too. however her 4 year old consistently unpleasant to mine. Had them over a few times then stopped seeing them after seeing dds bewildered face when i told her that x and y were coming again to her house (where she should feel safe and happy) despite us both knowing for her this meant an afternoon being got at. Still feel this was (one of) my crappest parenting episodes and now my kids come first.

I tried this, until the boy said he wanted to kill him. Now I know this particular boy has his issues, but my desire to protect my son prevailed.

I'm kind of on the fence here. I think you should try meeting up outside of school and see how it goes but be prepared to respect your ds's feelings if it doesn't work out.

I have been in a very similar situation. I have twin boys, one of whom (dt2) is very bright, easily bored and basically a handful who drove his (generally strict and very good) year 2 teacher to despair. The other (dt1) is more compliant and has better social skills. Then there is the 'naughtiest boy in the school' who doesn't get on with my naughty one very well but has a hit and miss relationship with my dt1.

He lives a few doors down, and outside of school the boys have socialised and got on really really well! Things are still a bit hit and miss at school, there has been fighting, racial slurs, etc. I have felt at times that it isn't my boys place to be dealign with all this, especially with the racism, but on the whole I think it is good for my boys to learn to be tolerant and also for the 'naughty' boy to have friends who are trying hard to be understanding.

It does help that the school are fully aware of the situation and are being supportive on both sides. The senco was particularly good at helping my boys deal with the racism. I think it might be worth you speaking to school to make sure they are fully aware of the situation if things did work out outside of school.

wilson is spot on IMO. Children are able to spot the scapegoat/ target from a young age.
It happened to my DS and even now at he's 9 yo, and now the school are more supportive and understanding of his SN and are able to get my DS to explain what happened it doesn't stop the children winding him up or using the fact they have superior speech and understanding to 'play' the teacher off against him. As you quite rightly said your DS is not immune to a little pushing and shoving - as I doubt most of the year R class are. But it's easy to moan/ complain about the child who does it most and 'forget' they also do it. Trouble is if not dealt with properly the child can end up with that feeling of naughty so play up to that label.

Soft play sounds great as there is defiantly a greatest out clause there if needed.

I would be inclined to explain the boy not being able to do things that's your DS and the others can do is because they have had their mummy and daddy to teach them since they were babies and he hasn't had his mummy and daddy as long. This may help foster understanding and tolerance, but at their age, maybe not!

'Have you never had a neighbour or work colleague who was a git/pain in the arse or annoying.Imagine you had to be in the same room as them for 30 hours a week and then were being forced to socialise with them afterwards as well.
If your DS says he doesn't like this kid, he has a reason .Respect that'

I don't believe in indulging 4 year olds in gossip, or in their 'not liking' someone. I do have (professional) experience, and it is far better for young children to learn to empathise, and make an effort to get along with everyone especially as this boy might be in his class in school for the next 7 years, and is a neighbour. Takes a village and all that...

I'd go for trying it in a neutral place. You never know it might work.

What I found out from similar was that dc generally had a valid reason for not liking a particular dc and that they weren't pawns but had minds of their own. No amount of me interfering made them like someone.

Couldnt agree less, sorry poopadoop. Obviously every child should be taught tolerance and to be kind and inclusive. But as their parent and "protector" what sort of message does it give to repeatedly invite a child that your child has told you hurts and upsets them into your home? Believe me I have done it, trying to be kind to other people whilst upsetting my child and damaging her trust in me in the process. No sorry won't be doing that again. If you are an instinctive helper and people pleaser being a parent can be difficult but sometimes (and every situation is different there are no rules) you sometimes have to learn to put your child first.

You can explain to your son why the other child is behind his milestones but the main issue is that this boy has been violent towards your son, who now doesn't even want to go to school. He needs to feel safe at home and not worry about being expected to play with this boy. You could try befriending the mother and then see if a friendship naturally forms between your children over time but don't push it.

'I don't believe in indulging 4 year olds in gossip, or in their 'not liking' someone'

what a ridiculous thing to say! why isn't a 4 yr old entitled to have their own feelings?

Well do we automatically respond to all the feelings a 4 year old has? You can acknowledge their feelings fine but it is better to try to help them not feel they 'dislike' someone, or that (as seems to be the case here) scapegoat someone who is clearly the subject of gossip. It doesn't sound as if the other child has been horrifically violent to the OP's child.

kerala - 'what sort of message does it give to repeatedly invite a child that your child has told you hurts and upsets them into your home?'
I don't think that has happened in this case, the OP hasn't invited the other child into their home at all.

IME, the world would be a better place if we were less protective of our 'feelings' of dislike and if children were encouraged to get along with everyone. Say if they decide they don't like their cousin? Do you cut off family contact? I'm sorry, but I think a better way to protect your child is to teach them that everyone has value, and to try to empathise. I really don't let my kids say they dislike anyone. They can dislike someone's actions, but not the person.

what a ridiculous thing to say! why isn't a 4 yr old entitled to have their own feelings?

They are, but opinions of people can change when you get to know them better. And if this child is the class scapegoat then it won't happen at school.

The OP can try to get them together. She can explain to her son her reasoning (so he can understand). And she can call a halt to it if they really do dislike each other.

Or, the other mother had better hope that the rest of the class don't share the same feelings. Because if they do, that little boy is in for a miserable time at school.

Thank you NannyOgg, you said what I meant! I do think it is a good life-skill to work through these feelings a bit, and ridiculously indulgent to accept immediate reactions as inviolate.

Not many children scapegoat at such a young age (they do as they get older). If they don't like someone, it's usually for a good reason (e.g. The one who told my son -both in reception- that he was going to kill him).

Exactly panzee they are not that sophisticated. It's rare mine actively don't like other kids and when they do its for a concrete reason ( he spat on my coat being a recent example). Obviously I am not suggesting pandering to children's whims but there is a spectrum - most reasonable parents would be somewhere in the middle between taking their kids opinions into account and jollying them along to get along with all sorts. Problems arise when parents perceived obligations to others override their kids interests, if the other child is persistently unkind say rather than abit dull.

I love that there are mums out there like you.

My DS is the child you're talking about (not literally ) and I think that children should be taught tolerance from an early age.

I think it would be a lovely idea to invite them around and keep an eye on them.

That poor boy may or may not have SN but it sounds like he's vulnerable & a bit lost and you could make a difference. Can you imagine what that will engender in your child? It feels amazing to make a difference to someone's life & it's a lesson he'll benefit from massively in the future.

Some children are sensitive and little things make a big difference (positively or negatively). My DS tells me he's had a bad day simply because of one negative comment from another child and vice versa ('suchabody was nice to me & drew me a picture' etc)

You sound kind & thoughtful & your DS will probably learn that from you anyway. I'm grateful you exist & it's a shame you're not a few doors down from me.

Don't scapegoat at 4 and 5?

Oh yes they do!

Often an incident would occur, and they would say 'So-and-so did that' and on further investigation So-and-so was nowhere near!

Kindness isn't always innate and definitely needs to be reinforced. They don't do these things maliciously because they (thankfully) don't always know how it feels to be excluded/disliked when they're little.

OP
I think you sound rather kind and lovely actually, and I'm sure the other mother would love for her child to receive a play date. Whilst the other boy is at your house you can supervise and see what the interaction between them is like. I think it's good for children to have to try and make an effort to play with other children, even if they are not natural friends.

I think it's a lovely idea to have a playdate. It doesn't have to be for ages - maybe just an hour or so after school, mum can come as well. That way you can see what the problem maybe is, and be there to supervise so things are OK. At that age, if they don't get on they'll still be happy playing separately with toys. I think it is very important to let children know that they need to be kind to others especially if they have SN. An adopted child may have been through a dreadful time prior to adoption and may have behavioural issues and I think it is incumbent on the community to help out. The mother has done a difficult thing in adopting, and it must feel heartbreaking to think your child is being ostracized.

Both DS primary schools have been near parks and a simple 'are you two going to the park' after school could be all that's needed here. It doesn't have to be a 'thing'.