To think the Landlord is taking the piss?

[Juno77]

We recently moved out of a rented property. We have been in the property for 4 years.

When we moved in, the place was disgusting. The previous tenants smoked, the carpets, furniture, beds, even the walls stank of smoke. There was dirty, mouldy food in the cupboards. The fridge and freezer were filthy. The walls were creamy yellow stained. The rugs were unusable, so dirty and smelled horrific. The kitchen equipment was foul - greasy, dirty, marked/stained, chipped. The mattress was stained, had burn holes in it and was mouldy. Basically the place was not habitable as it was.

We spent £400 on new kitchen goods and a mattress, and spent 3 days airing and cleaning the property before we could stay there. I wasn't happy with the smoke smell and wouldn't let DS stay until it was much less noticeable (it didn't 'go' for months, really).

We put all the mentioned items above in storage. After a few months, the LL came round and we showed her everything, she told us to bin it all, bar the rugs which she wanted back. We arranged this, no problems.

Every 6 months, we had an inspection. Never any problems, in fact the inspectors often commented on how clean and tidy we kept the property. Once they recommended that the property could do with a redecoration as the walls etc were still stained. This never happened.

We moved out a few months ago, after giving our notice as required. We even found a new tenant to move in, and helped the agents out with this process.

We applied for our deposit back, as it was being held with a protection scheme.

We have been told the LL has asked to hold the entire amount, for the following reasons:

End of tenancy clean.
Handyman charge to reinstate the door closers and wardrobe handles. (these handles were not on the wardrobe when we moved in - they were inside it! We never moved them, we never used them).
Missing/damaged items - Cutlery/Utensils/Chopping Boards/Iron/Bedding. (as explained above. Plus, there was an iron there.
Replacement bed due to damaged slats. (two of the slats are damaged. We can't prove this wasn't us, but we don't know of it happening, IYSWIM. Would be happy to pay this if it is our fault.

I am absolutely gutted. We have been great tenants, never missed a rent payment, never caused any damage, repainted the hall ourselves (same colour), really looked after the outside area and never once had a problem.

They've said they have lost the inventory from when we moved in. They've also lost the 6 monthly inspection reports.

They claim to took nine hours to clean the 2 bedroom flat when we moved out. We did a good, thorough cleaning of the flat, the new tenant moved in and was totally happy with it. They've claimed they had to have this done (though didn't do it for us when we moved in)

Incidentally - I asked for the invoices for the cleaning and handyman. Both came from the letting agents 'sister' cleaning and maintenance companies, of the same name

I can't believe the LL is doing this to us. Without this money, we don't have anything available to pay a deposit on a new property.

The 9 hours cleaning will be calculated so that with the cost of the other things it all adds up nicely to £1000.
When we sold our last house I got a couple of quotes for a cleaning service as we had done that before. They came in at over £600 for a 3 bed semi and that was for the basic service. 8 years previously it had been £75. This was in Edinburgh where there are a lot of rented properties. Apparently most landlords and agents put in a professional cleaning clause in the tenancy agreement- either it has to be cleaned professionally or you have to clean it to a professional standard. If you don't and this may include things like failing to dry clean the curtains or deep cleaning the oven or french polishing the table they will charge you for a professional clean. The agent may get a cut for the cleaning referral or as in your case is the sister company. That is why they charge ludicrous prices. The actual cleaners won't get this - they'll get minimum wage. It is one huge big giant scam to keep your money.

Ah, just clocked something you said op. Are you in Scotland? The rules are different - what I've said re dates applies to England and Wales. Don't think that changes your basic right to get your deposit back though.

Tobias that is technically true. However any contract term that required the tenant to leave a property in a better condition than they found it, would be an unfair term and not legally enforceable. Although obviously the onus is on the tenant to work out that it is an unfair term.

rally no, but they have said that a kirby grip broke the fan, which is our fault.

tobias that's what I thought too. Oddly, the total they are claiming for, when itemised, comes to £8 over the deposit amount. Coincidence!

There was nothing in the tenancy about cleaning.

Yes - in Scotland...

Perhaps the LL knows nothing about this and it is a dodgy agent trying to steal from both of you. Could you contact the landlord directly?

Possibly... though the agents have been fairly honest that it's come from her. In fact, the guy I am dealing with has even said it is ridiculous.

I am in Scotland, and have some experience of the TDS, although never with a dispute so can't speak from direct knowledge of how these go in reality.

You can go to the TDS, and apply to their dispute resolution process. You are supposed to show that you have tried to reach agreement with your landlord re what is to happen to the deposit, but been unable to do so. So, in the first instance, if you haven't already done so, I would write to the ll advising why you do not consider you are liable for the deductions they are seeking (ie either not your fault or unreasonable/excessive charging). But be aware that you have to raise a dispute within 30 days.

Once you register a dispute, the ll is bound to go along with this and an independent adjudicator is appointed to come to a decision (even if they decide against you, there is still scope to ask for a review of the decision)

You don't have to use the dispute resolution scheme, you can go to court (though would cost you and the dispute resolution service is free) The adjudicator has to make a decision within 20 days of you registering the dispute.

I don't know how many cases are going to dispute, and how well/badly they are being dealt with. It is a situation of one word against another. Does the ll have multiple properties? If so, may be known for doing this. Also may be relying on your ignorance of your legal rights.

So far as your new property goes, if I were you, I would grit my teeth and borrow the deposit money from parents/in-laws (whoever is the lesser of the two evils!) in the hope you can pay it back to them in full once the dispute has been dealt with.

You might want to phone the TDS to speak to someone there - in my experience they have been quite helpful. Or look on their website as they set out the legal requirements and obligations quite well. You could also telephone Shelter or CAB for advice.

Good luck and let us know how you are getting on.

That is really helpful, thank you.

What's the TDS?

We have started a dispute with the LPS who have our deposit.

We can't really afford to borrow the money for the deposit anyway, just in case we don't get this money back. We will never be able to repay it.

I just wanted to add I am a LL and they are very out of order.

1. with no inventory they cannot prove any of the claimed dirt, missing items etc and it is down to them to prove it.

2. refuse to accept the lose of you deposit and it will go into a dispute process. They won't win without a video inventory

3. the washing machine. I know my tenants broke mine but I can't proves that they ever used it in 8 weeks so I had to pay.

Trust me, the law is on the side of tenants although I get why when there are such tosspot LAs and LLs about.

Good luck op

They have an inventory, it's unsigned.

They claim this is THE inventory. I claim it isn't, I've never seen it before and the one I signed is different.

They don't have a copy of the signed one, they say.

Then they are up shit creek ;)

Sorry - Tenant Deposit Scheme, whom you have been in contact with already.

Are you actually about to rent another property? You say you moved out a few months ago, so not clear where you are staying/what your plans are. If you are could you see if your new landlords would take their deposit by instalments? Perhaps you could provide a Guarantor ie someone who undertakes to make payment of any sums not paid by you (usually done re your rent, but possibly would agree to it re your deposit. You could maybe show your new landlord correspondence and undertake to keep them fully in the loop about your dispute. Some landlords are quite prepared to be flexible for the security of getting a good tenant.

There is a council scheme in some areas where the council will guarantee the deposit and the tenant has one year to pay it (the Bond Scheme). Not sure though what the current criteria is or whether you would qualify, also not all local authorities may do this.

Hi, have a good read. this should make you feel a whole lot better

www.depositprotection.com/documents/a-guide-to-tenancy-deposits-disputes-and-damages.pdf

That particular link helped some tenants I worked for. The agents cleaners were in house. They tried to charge £180 for cleaning. It was spotless, I know because I had cleaned it.

Just one thing to add though about the clean, many tenancy agreements have it written into them that the tenant needs to have a professional clean done at the end of the tenancy, if this is the case and you can't prove you did, they could claim for that but this would be nowhere near 9 hours and claiming for 9 hours a relative is easily disputed.

Op it might be a good Idea to speak directly to LL if you haven't already. Previous dealings I have had with a lettings agency showed that the LL was unaware of excess and irregular end bill. The agency had kept every penny and hadn't told the owner about any charges.

Also with the window cleaning part do they mean outside windows? If so surely they're the responsibility of the agents who manage the flat? Not the individual tenants?

OP this set up is exactly like the agents my clients had a trouble with,
A well established City Centre agent, with, the maintenance and cleaning all owned in house... I don't know how its legal.

"Just one thing to add though about the clean, many tenancy agreements have it written into them that the tenant needs to have a professional clean done at the end of the tenancy, if this is the case and you can't prove you did, they could claim for that but this would be nowhere near 9 hours and claiming for 9 hours a relative is easily disputed."

That's a great example of an unfair contract clause and one which can rightly be challenged.

jupiter that link is fantastic. Thank you so much, that will really help me from my argument.

jetset I can only assume it was, as the inside of the windows were spotless. I cleaned them.

We are about to (hopefully) rent another property, but it's through another agency not a private landlord and there is no negotiation on the rent payment. We've actually paid the deposit (£1500), but we can't move in until we pay the first months rent as well which is another £1k and we don't have it, as we were expecting this deposit money back.

Often a tenant will be expected to get the outside of the windows cleaned. However it is usually set out in the terms of the lease.
As I said his is what did for my sister's deposit in her flat- the outside of the windows weren't cleaned despite the fact there was scaffolding in the way and they couldn't tilt and turn. That was a big Edinburgh agent but it was 15 years ago.

We'll, there are three issues with the external side of the windows:

They never gave us keys to open the windows fully
They are three floors up so we couldn't physically do it
They never asked us to have them cleaned

Take them to arbitration and you should get your money back - do you have a friend who is a solicitor or accountant and would be willing to write a stiff letter threatening legal action?

So sorry OP, I've had experience of dealing with rubbish landlords and it's incredibly frustrating. Just read the other landlord thread ongoing ATM for a glimpse of how LLs hold tenants in complaint!

Just a quick note on how to avoid this in the future in case it helps anyone - on your moving day take an hour or so to take a lot of high res time-stamped photos of every room, appliance and piece of furniture in the property. When you hand your keys back, email the agent/LL including the photos as an email attachment and asking for confirmation of receipt. Reference the inventory (if there is one) and tenancy agreement (also attach as an electronic file or scan if possible) and request and an acknowledgement of your right to receive back the full deposit. Copy yourself in and save the email. It doesn't matter if you receive an acknowledgment or not, what's important is to show you sent it if the LL tries it on. This usually scares them off any funny business. Even better is to get the agent or LL to meet you at the property at handover and present them with this email and photos and ask them to agree the photos are an accurate representation there and then - you can then send a following email saying "as you agreed at handover

Sorry!

-- Handover of keys, property is left in a clean and acceptable condition according to terms of tenancy agreement".

Sounds a bit OTT, but so many LLs try it on, this really stops them in their tracks. And never assume that a LL will be a decent person about this, esp. if they are an amateur landlord - cover yourself anyway.

Good luck OP!!

*contempt not complaint! Bloody phone, sorry!