To stop feeding my DC vegetables?

[FourArms]

I'm low-carbing and eat a good quantity and variety of vegetables. I don't eat any fruit.

My DC (nearly 8 & 10) hate eating most veg and all fruit. DS1 will willingly drink OJ and DS2 will happily eat peas & sweetcorn. Everything else is an uphill struggle.

Having just read this article is there any point in continuing this daily nightmare?

Just for info - they're both processed carb fiends - love pasta, bakery products, rice, cereal etc.

Yes. Try disguising them.

there was an article in the Journal of the American Medical Association (JAMA) in 1999 called “The Spread of the Obesity Epidemic in the United States, 1991-1998”. This reported that, during this period (when fruit and vegetable intake increased by nearly 20%), obesity increased by 50%, from 12.0% in 1991 to 17.9% in 1998.[iv] I’m not saying that five-a-day caused this, but it certainly didn’t help.

This section of the article is enough for me to discredit anything else the author says tbh.

The writer is incapable of determining cause, effect and considering other contributory factors - ie - a load of tosh and ridiculously single-minded.

I do. They often get bolognese type meals with many varieties of veg chopped & puréed in. But I'm just wondering what the point of that is?

Just keep on giving them the fruit and veg in whatever form they will accept.

I have an extreme fruit and veg hater. I make fruit or veg based cakes for his lunchtime cake fix on the grounds that it's better than nothing and I get to control how sweet it is.

Yes, 5 a day might be quite arbitrary, but it's not approximately none.

And if you're wondering what the point is, the point is the nutritional value of the veg.

I'd cut out the OJ as it's basically just a big glass of sugar. And keep offering them veg and fruit and stop with the processed carbs. But the I follow the 'you eat what I put in front of you, or you go hungry' school of cooking/parenting.

Wedding coming up - she's the author of lots of books on obesity, they generally seem well considered.

I don't really worry about my DC becoming obese although that is one angle to consider the virtue of veg if not fruit. But are veg really nutritionally superior to other food groups?

Tbh I struggle to imagine what I would feed the dc if there were no vegetables or salad.

What would/do you feed them? There are very few meals I can think of that has none in.

My two have always loved fruit but not veg. However there is veg with every meal and they have to eat it or they won't get their yoghurt afterwards (they love yoghurt).

I'd agree re orange juice - children don't need juice at all.

As time has gone by, I have introduced other veg, just a taste on their plate and they have to taste something new (one mouthful). I give lots of praise for trying new things and saying how grown up they are to try new foods. I think it takes 10 tastes (IIRC) to get used to and like something new.

To sum up, each year my children's repertoire of food they'll eat has increased massively. If you don't gradually introduce new flavours and textures when they're young they'll end up fussy adults and no one will enjoy having them over for dinner

Keep trying, reward charts etc.

I use vegatable bouilon 'gravy' to add taste to DS's veg.

I haven't read articlcle but have seen enough obese programs to see fruit an veg not only improved weight but also health energy...

Try varying them...Carrots in honey, roast parsnips, cabbage with bacon , cauliflower cheese.. bannas with custard, make fruit kebabs...Carrot sticks in dips.. strawberries with squirty cream , vegetable soup

My Ds loves his veg but younger he would have a lot of carrot and swede mash as he would eat it.

Yes I do think you need to try and encourage it , chances are they won't improve their diet as a teen...

I do think even the blended things they are getting the taste.

well for a start vegetables and fruit contain vitamins, minerals, antioxidants, fiber, omega oils, water etc.

All the things your kids need extra of to effectively metabolise all the processed carbs (is basically sugar from a nutritional point of view) that they eat.

For the body to metabolise food it uses lots of vitamins and minerals - which it also gets from food including fruit and vegetables. When you eat foods that are very low in vitamins and minerals - again like processed carbs - not only are they not contributing vitamins and minerals to your body (they basically contribute bulk calories only), but they are depleting vitamins and minerals from your body so that they can be metabolised.

So whilst processed carbs provide bulk calories, they deplete your vitamin/mineral balance - you can say eating these foods create a 'debt' in your body. The more processed carbs you eat the bigger the debt created. Which isn't a great long term situation metabolically speaking.

Its all maths really. And simply put this is why a balanced diet is important.

Fruit/veg contain vitamins, minerals and fibre.

This commentappears below the article you linked to and makes a very good point:

" I wanted to point out something quite drastic you [author of the article] did not mention, not even in passing. Which has a very large impact on bowel, eosophageal, stomach cancers. Fibre…fruits and vegetables come with a large ammount of fibre, meats, fish and other animal products don’t. Your arguement however clever it tries to be is fundamentally flawed because you ignored this point..."

source: www.zoeharcombe.com/2012/03/five-a-day-the-truth/
comment by John, March 26,2012

This site whfoods.org/foodstoc.php has a VAST amount of information about the nutritional content of vegetables, and many other foods. Just look at what it says about humble and cheap sweet potatoes, for example!

you can pick apart this article bit by bit if you wanted to - I don't but to just give one example the following statement is used by the author to prop up her "fruit and vege don't really give us any valuable vitamins argument":

"The pure form of vitamin A (retinol), vitamin D3 and vitamin K2 are only found naturally in animal foods (meat, fish, eggs and dairy products)".
However our bodies can manufacture Vitamin A if they have access to beta-carotene, which comes from fruit and vegetables

So veges may not contain Vitamin A, but we don;t need to eat Vitamin A directly.

Aren't you missing the wider thrust of her article? She is saying 5 a day is misconceived because people end up just trying to maximise fruit and veg intake on top of what they already eat when the health benefits of this are unproven. What we need to do is 'swap out' nutrient poor foods like the processed carbs your children like for the nutrient dense foods she thinks we need to consume more of (liver, sardines, eggs, whole milk, sunflower seeds, oats, cocoa, spinach and broccoli).

So yes if aiming for 5 a day is a pain by all means stop, and definitely stop the OJ, which is negligible in health terms. But you need to think about how you can get your children to swap in porridge or eggs at breakfast, green veg at dinner time, sunflower seeds rather than crisps or biscuits as a snack etc etc.

I don't know if I agree with the article as a whole - I'm definitely not informed about nutrition, but it would be illogical to just cut fruit and veg in response to it.

My brother refused to eat fruit or veg as a child and loved his processed carbs. My mum was told by the doctor not to force the issue as 'he'd come round to it in his own time' . Fast forward 40-odd years and the only fruit he'll eat is in the form of OJ, and the only veg, potato. He is hugely overweight, has appalling skin and suffers from depression characterised by extreme lethargy. He won't even try veg, if you give him anything with obvious veg in it he'll sit and pick them out...

I suspect that an awful lot of his problems would at least be lessened if he ate a healthy diet.

Lots of good points thanks.

They do eat potatoes and I have cut down the processed carbs a lot since I've starting LCing.

Really no nutritional point in OJ at all for an active 10 year old?

Part of the issue is that we eat frequently with my parents and the continual fight over eating veg is depressing and upsetting to me and my parents who brought us up having to eat what was on our plates. A year or so ago 2 peas was a breakthrough so we're making progress with DS1.

I might try it as an option that has rewards e.g. Xbox time if you eat it rather than punishing them if they don't?

I suppose with no veg, meals would often be meat & potato (except for stew/bolognese meals).

Well OJ is a source of sugar and thus energy and 10 year olds need that in abundance. But squash would be the same. And water would be better as you might then encourage him to get some calories from food instead and avoid the sugar acid combo in juice which is so bad for teeth

Sorry that is really po-faced. Most children drink juice, it isn't evil, it just isn't healthier than any other sugary drink. Eating an orange would be better, because the skin contains fibre and the orange will contain far less sugar than a glass of juice.

With eating veg is the problem your children's behaviour or your parent's expectations?

Being choosy about veg aged 8 and 10 is very very normal. Your DC aren't naughty or defective. Keep serving them veg but don't fuss or bribe. If they try them great. If they don't it really isn't a problem. It is definitely true that we can get most of the nutrients we need from quite a narrow range of foods, there is no reason, beyond adult control to demand that children eat everything put in front of them.

But it is important to model eating a health wide-ranging diet so I'd really carry on serving the veg. They may start eating a wider range of foods as they enter their teens and want to start fitting in with their mates etc, but they can only do that if you haven't started offering a restricted diet already. I teach university students and at that age it seems it is really quite cool to be very very health conscious and they get very snooty choosing salads in the Student Union on the basis of which has the lowest GI! In 8 years time you'll be moaning that you cannot afford to keep your sons in organic avocadoes and quinoa.

And if your parents have a problem with the fact that plates are not clean that is your parent's problem not yours or your DCs.

I used to put a small amount of veg on the plates and let them leave it, so no battles. They eventually started to eat it.

They all have student diets now. Till they come home when I overload them with fruit and vegetables.

have you tried not forcing them to eat the vegetables? It is hugely stressful for everyone when food becomes a battle ground. I don't make my 2 eat anything (now - though I am times tempted belive me, but it's virtully impossible), but I do insist they try it (and DD1 has agreed to that - DD2 is too young), and I don't serve anything else to make up for the vege they don't eat. if they reject dinner completely and they are really hungry they have the option of plain toast. I really don't want food to become a control issue (esp with girls) so I try very hard to stay as neutral as possible about it.

When DD1 stops eating and leaves veggies I often ask her to eat just 5 mouthfuls of her veges - she will do this if there is a mango or something else she loves for afters. Yes it's bribery but it works,

Also when DD1 was in a VERY fussy stage she would always eat cucumber and carrot sticks - so while I cooked dinner I would give her these to munch on. I add in radish, sweet pepper strips, cherry toms, mange tout etc on rotation - often rejected but sometimes eaten. It takes pressure off eating the vege with the meals if they have eaten these beforehand - and if they are hungry waiting for dinner you might be surprised. In the past there have been times when the only vege DD1 will eat is cucumber - we go through several per week. My 2 actually can have fights over cucumber

Simply changing the carbs to wholegrain version can make a difference too and they will get used to it. Wholegrains have fiber, trace elements/minerals and oils. Brown basmati rice is really nice, whole grain breads, you can get wholegrain Jacobs crackers now. You can buy lots of wholegrain pasta in supermarket.

They might protest for a while, but they will not starve.

Re the X-box suggestion, maybe the only way they can earn X-box time is by eating vegetables? X minutes for trying, X minutes for eating, X minutes for 5 mouthfuls etc. Then it becomes part of their area of control and they can decide for themselves.

I would think the vege would soon become 2nd nature as they got used to it and you wouldn't have to do this for too long?

Try to get them to eat some fruit and veg out with meal times so that there is less of a battle. Cut up peel if necessary to make it easier for them to snack on. Crudités with home made dips, hummus, avocado, artichoke etc. cut up apples, have grapes and berries available as they are easy too

I'd always put the veg on the plate / table don't avoid it, less pressure but encourage them to taste. Hide vegetables in whatever you are making so that you know they are getting them. Let them help choose which 2 veg are for dinner and how they want to cook them etc.

I agree with reward system. Have you tried serving the veg cooked in different ways? My DCs are meh about most plain steamed veg except peas, sweetcorn and broccoli, but love veg soup, riasred veg, veg and lentil stew etc. A big favourite is broccoli mashed with egg, cheese and breadcrumbs and baked. My older DC will eat almost anything raw, even things she doesn't like cooked. I also put loads of veg in things like pasta sauce, burgers or sausage patties, frittata.

You would BVU to stop giving them any veg. The fibre issue is part of it, but also their general health.

I meant roasted veg. Bah.

Thanks for all the suggestions; I've probably tried them all at some point, but some not for years.

DS1 in particular mentally could not eat veg until very recently- he would be sick when eating it. We've made big progress. He would go hungry / to bed / not be bribed by veg. But I think the Xbox would be his weak point.

It is my parents' expectations (and I hate hearing how much veg my niece has eaten that day every evening). It makes me feel like I've failed somehow.

I think the Xbox will be the next tack - DS1 did eat more variety for a while to get a new game.

I will introduce more wholegrain - we do brown rice & seedy brown bread, I could change pasta too. Are they better than potatoes? And the OJ can go - they like water anyway. :)

They do say you can get one of your 5 a day from fruit juice...DS has one glass of apple juice a day...

I wouldn't cut out just replace certain things...Try seet potatoes...

You can make carrot sweet potaotoe chips, beetroot , carrot, parsnip crisps, while maybe not the healthiest way to eat veg..It may well get them started...

Something my friend did was take her DC to the supermarket and pick one either fruit or veg they were willing to try...