To think the only reason they're protecting pensions is to buy votes?

[Callani]

Am I the only one who's really cross about the latest pledge to protect OAP benefits when everyone else is being thrown under the bus?

In an ideal world we wouldn't have to be going through cuts, but we are and it seems that certain groups (under 25s in particular) are being targeted to over protect OAPs when many already benefit from final salary pensions and massive increase in the price of their properties.

It just makes me angry that they're planning to "triple lock" pensions when the state pension has already risen 24% in 5 years and they're cutting so many other things more harshly to fund it. Plus there's the more selfish fact that by the time I retire (probably at 75) there probably won't be a state pension anyway and my private pension will be worth about 10p a week so that makes me grumpy.

Is this not the epitome of mortgaging your future generations to pay for luxuries right now (or something better phrased and more eloquent)???

I have no qualms about them protecting the state pension, what pisses me off is their refusal to even look at the free bus pass or winter fuel allowance. These should be means tested imo, and no winter fuel allowance for those who spend the vast majority of their time abroad.

They tempt you in with a promise and then don't deliver.

The winter fuel allowance is a difficult one, and while I support it, I can also see the flaws in it. It certainly no worse than child tax credits being paid out for an endless number of children per family.

Bus passes are a non issue IMO. People don't tend to claim their bus pass unless they are actually going to use it, and as wealthy pensioners don't tend to take the bus, it's irrelevant. There is no cost to the taxpayer when the bus passes aren't being used. They only work on off peak times when the busses have space on them and will be driving around anyway.

It certainly no worse than child tax credits being paid out for an endless number of children per family

Tax credits are means tested though, WFA is not. That for me is the crucial difference.

Whether Tax Credits should be paid for an endless number of children is a valid discussion in its own right, but it is a different issue from the non-means-testing of WFA

Pension isn't a lot just googled and it £110.10 per week.

There would be other top ups if this was the only income, and housing benefit if renting. Yes many pensioners are poor, but many are very comfortable, with index linked pensions not available to younger people. And they had the opportunity to buy an affordable family home.

There's a lot of pensioners with substantial pensions living in mortgage free houses worth ££££s that are much richer than their children's generation. The sooner this group starts to share some of the pain the better IMHO.

Its worth mentioning that MPs themselves tend to be older (the average age is 50) so arguably they're going to be more interested in issues that apply to them and their friends. They're supposed to represent constituents but how much they actually do depends on how they see things. My MP certainly doesnt represent the demographics of his constituents.

The unrelated argument about rich pensioners not using bus passes is wrong in my experience - my boss for example earns 60k a year, drives everywhere and yet still has his bus pass for the occasions when he goes out drinking so he doesnt need to pay for taxis.

Of course it is. As long as old people have enough money they're hardly going to care how much younger people or families are struggling. The exact same attitude as all who vote Tory. They're comfortable enough so fuck everyone else.

Fair enough, but I've heard it said enough times (although I don't know whether it's true) that the cost of means testing would be more than the cost of leaving the WFA as a universal benefit.

If that's true, then where is the benefit in means testing?

Golden I believe means testing can cost more in admin than would be saved.

I'd be in favour of energy companies having to subsidize the bills of anyone on a low income, including pensioners, and give them compensation rather than using winter fuel allowance. This would switch the admin to energy companies who already have systems in place to monitor fuel spending and would also make them more responsible for dealing with fuel poverty.

Someone who earns £60k a year is likely to pay more than enough tax to cover their buss pass.

As a childfree person in earning £18k with my own small one-bedroom flat (mortgage of £70,000) with no private pension (although I will get a stakeholder one when it becomes law for my company to provide one, but it will be minimum), I think protecting pensions is absolutely right and proper.

I am now 39 and expect to work until I am at least 70, possibly longer. I couldn't get a grant to go to university 20 years ago to study drama (I could have had one to study gold course management) and my parents couldn't afford to send me. I am now working in theatre, despite not having the degree but theatre isn't highly paid.

Assuming I will remain relatively healthy, I'd like to think that when I finally do retire, all that money I've been paying in but getting nothing back via any sort of benefit, I can at least get some of it back via a state pension.

The exact same attitude as all who vote Tory. They're comfortable enough so fuck everyone else.

Very lazy attitude. I voted Tory. I spent a very, VERY long time researching my local candidates, listening to what they said (those that could be bothered) and voted for the candidate that I felt would do best by our local community.

I find the attitude that because you exercise your democratic right to vote however you wish, you have a "fuck everyone else" attitude very distasteful.

YANBU - it's obvious and blatant because the Tories can only really rely on the grey vote.

What really upsets me is that I can see us being in a situation where if the Tories win the next election we'll be fighting to keep DLA for our daughter who is disabled. I'm really and truly worried about this and I'm sure many other disabled people are too

Meanwhile, many of my parents friends are open about not needing the money and spending their winter fuel allowance on cruises, summer houses for the garden and other luxuries. Even my dad thinks this is wrong!!!

Fair enough, but I've heard it said enough times (although I don't know whether it's true) that the cost of means testing would be more than the cost of leaving the WFA as a universal benefit.

Yes, I've heard it said too, but as nobody has ever been able to produce convincing figures to prove it, I can't help but believe it is another lazy excuse trotted out by politicians to justify their support of their core voters pensioners.

Even if it were true, I think it should be seen as a good reason to get better at means testing, not to just pay WFA irrespective of means.

If push came to shove, Pension Credit would be a useful 'passporting' tool, i.e. if you are in receipt of PC, then you are also eligible for WFA and free bus pass?

Of course they are protecting pensions to buy votes. This the "tyranny of the majority". The majority of voters are pensioners or approaching pension age and happen to want unaffordable pension benefits at the cost of screwing over young people so that's what politicians promise, it's what the majority vote for and it's what everyone has to live with.

Democracy is great if your interests tie in with the majority of other voters, otherwise it's a pretty shit system.

This is a perfect example of what is known as the 'tyranny of democracy'.

What that means is that when you a reach a situation that more than 50% of the population are dependent on the Government for their income then those people will always vote for any Government that promises to pay them more.

If you add to together all UK Government employees (and their dependents), pensioners and everyone else who lives off long term on benefits then you have more than 50% of the population. Hence the pensioner vote is very powerful and any spending cuts will always be borne by those who are young and work who are in the minority.

I am 50 years old and hence stand between the two camps. I am likely to get some sort of state pension but it grates me that older pensioners who really have benefitted hugely from stable jobs, extremely high house prices and a fully funded welfare state are so militant and selfish. Talking to some of these people they really come across as quite entitled and selfish. My parents fall into this category.

Yellowknife - x-post. Great minds think alike.

Well said yellowknife and MoreBeta.

That's your parents though more mine have worked very, very hard been hit by redundancies and still worked on it shit jobs. Frankly they deserve every penny and aren't at all entitled.

you don't get back what you've paid in tax as your pension. The tax-paying generation pay pensioners' pensions. So we (people of working age) don't get to benefit from many of the things pensioners did, but have to pay into their pensions and benefits from our dwindling incomes. What a great double whammy.

It is always worth pointing out to pensioners (particularly relatively well off pensioners) who moan away about benefit scroungers and immigrants that they are the biggest recipients of welfare in this country - I believe it's something in the region of 53% of the welfare bill goes on pensioners' benefits. And yet, apparently, they get their benefits protected.

I should like to say, however, that not all pensioners think this is right or fair - my 78-year-old mum (well-off) things it's outrageous that she still gets winter fuel and her TV license paid, but that young families are being penalised left, right and centre. (Though my ILs, also well-off, are not of this way of thinking, so perhaps she is alone in this. She would never vote Tory in a trillion years away.)

Of course it's blatant!
And no doubt before the election all the leaders will be on mn pledging whatever they think will get our votes.
(Remember the pledge to keep universal child Benefit? They even took ads out in the press!)
Those who complain about the grey vote need to vote themselves - not sure what to do about voter apathy in the young though...
Prior to obamas run for president, the African American % of the vote was tiny.
We need a leader the young can aspire to and admire to get them voting.
At least in The US not every president has been to an Ivy League university/had a hugely privileged upbringing, unlike our lot (all parties)
The elite rule this country and it is folly to think otherwise.

I have taken out private health insurance for me and my kids. The NHS as we know it will be gone in 15/20 years.
I also accept that if I reach pension age there will be no state pension (I am 41).
Worrying times, and very upsetting when you see our parents generation who have benefitted from final salary pension schemes, a whole life of free quality healthcare, and massive property equity.

"the party (or in this case parties) representing the majority of voters are elected into Government."

Generally speaking, no they are not...

Total votes cast 29,687,604. Votes for the Conservative Party 10,703,654. Votes not for the Conservative Party: 18,983,950 i.e. far less than half the voters wanted Cameron and his shower in charge.

One could include the votes cast for the Limp Dems and then there would be a 'majority' however it is questionable how many people would have voted for a Tory/LibDem coalition (had we been asked).

Just to show I'm not partisan, the previous Labour government had even less of a 'mandate' Election results 2005

Gideon is now saying he wants to abolish housing benefit for under 25s. Presumably because that is the generation that doesn't vote. Oh, and also because the Tories happen to hate the young and the poor.

Do any of you remember how Cameron was asked about free bus passes for penioners in one of the Leaders debates before the last election?

He was forced into saying he would keep free bus passes on live TV even though most pensioners do not need it. Indeed my PILs always said that pensioners should pay at least 50p for every journey and full fair in the peak periods.

Do pensioners really need winter fuel allowance, do they really need totally free prescriptions. Could they not contribute something to the cost of simple medications now their pensions have risen so much in comparison. Is it really necessary for pensioners to go the GP to get a free prescription for paracetom0ol and skin cream. So many do and they clog up GP surgeries. I know many elderly have serious health issues but in terms of sheer numbers many go to get a free prescription for over the counter medicines they could buy out of their pension.