wwyd with friend situation

[paynosttentiontothecat]

My friend is lovely but I am concerned about her. I have known her for five years but recently she started working for my organisation and therefore I am her manager. I didn't anticipate any issues with personal life/friendship because she's good at her job but others have started commenting on her appearance.

She has been wearing strange clothes for the weather, sundresses with no tights, never wears a coat or scarf or gloves. Ballet pumps when it's tipping down with rain, always. Never wears makeup or bothers to do her hair nicely (it's yanked back into a ponytail which isn't flattering to her.) clothes are frequently ripped or torn. Huge monobrow. Bad body odour and hair looks frankly like its been dipped in chip fat.

Yet her nails are always manicured, her hair is always highlighted (just not clean!) , I can't make sense of it.

How on earth do you raise a subject like this? The problem is there isn't a formal dress code as such although smart casual has always been the generally accepted rule. What she wears would be fine in June but is odd in December, and then there's the tearing and clothes are sometimes stained as well. She generally rotates the same 3 outfits.

Personally I wouldn't do/say anything.

She might just be scruffy and have no fashion sense.

I have worked with a few people who wear the same clothes and inappropriate clothes.

I also know people who suffer from body odour, my dp being one of them, and I know for sure that he washes twice a day and uses deodorant, he can't help it.

She may have a bit of a medical problem hence the BO and greasy hair.

I see loads of women at work in ballet pumps in winter, you could just drop into friendly conversation 'aren't your feet cold'? You may find out more.

Suggest a drink after work and talk to her then in a more relaxed environment. As you say you used to see her most in the 'going out' environment so you will have a more recent comparison in how she presents herself.

Sorry but I can't help thinking about if I said something to some of the people at work who dress scruffy/inappropriate. Or if someone said something to my dp who has never irons his clothes or wears a coat because then he sweats and gets BO.

You'd be met with a clear piss off.

Some people just don't place as much emphasis on appearance as others, doesn't mean there's anything wrong with them.

This is the side of mumsnet I hate.

Emphasis on appearance and fashionable clothes is one thing. Dirty clothes and bad personal hygiene is another.

It might not be bad personal hygiene, people can suffer from BO and still be clean.

I think the angle to approach the issue from is asking "is everything OK at home, is there anything I can do to help?" then mentioning the issues with appearance. That's the approach my team leader took with me when my standards had slipped a bit (though not this much) when I was suffering from depression. It was still an embarassing conversation but the fact that it was in private and she was sympathetic to my situation helped. Address the issue with friendly concern but still keep the conversation professional.

Dollslikeyouandme The OP mentions other signs of poor personal hygiene like very greasy hair as well. And yes, I know some people have greasy hair even when they wash it regularly but combined with BO it makes poor hygiene more likely.

The key issues you need to focus on are BO and professional presentation. Style is a personal issue if it's not flounting the workplace dress code but dirty, ripped clothes are unprofessional.

And what if she can't help it? As many people can't. Then she will be aware that everyone else is aware.

Personally unless she wasn't doing her job properly I'd leave we'll alone re her possible poor hygiene & lack of dress sense.

Dolls like it or not most people would judge someone who looked dirty and smelt bad, especially in a work environment. It is unprofessional and shows a lack of consideration for others. The OP is right to want to help her colleague, especially as she is also a friend.

She can help washing her clothes though . Professional presentation is part of her job. Ignoring the issue wouldn't be doing her any favours.

"You'd be met with a clear piss off. "

You would be sacked in every job that I have had, if constructive comments were met with abuse.

I have worked mainly in jobs were this wouldn't be overlooked, shops, cafés and professional roles.

You are her manager, other staff members are commenting.

You are in danger of being accused of playing favourites, as soon as a comment was made, you should have taken the person to a private place and addressed it, either with "i will deal with it, or keep any personal remarks out of working hours".

Some of it my DD is guilty of (and she is the manager) she leaves her hair unwashed and ties it back, she always wears ballet pumps and never dresses for the weather. She has her nails done. For work it is very basic clothing unless she has a Professionals meeting.

But body odour, if extreme and dirty clothes regularly, need addressing. As her manager, keep in professional, however you also do need to be aware that it could be a sign if depression/problems and need to ask if any support is needed for any reason. That is your duty if care as her manager.
As her friend you should be asking, but if you ask informally do it outside of work and keep it friendly not repeating what colleagues have said.

You are either going to gave to address this as her Manager, or friend, for your own sake. I would take the manager route, personally.

Body odour in the workplace is unpleasant and impacts on everyone else that has to interact with that person, in person. Have you ever been cooped up in a office for 8 hours a day with someone who smells... whether the smell is BO or strong perfume. It's unprofessional. As are dirty stained clothes in the workplace - unless you work on your own, with no contact in person with the outside world, or somewhere extremely hot and filthy, like a ship's engine or down the mines or something .

Yes, it may be that she can't help it, but it's far more likely that she can and she's not even aware of it.

Tbh if she's wearing dirty stained clothes and has greasy hair then it doesn't take a huge strech to imagine that her personal hygiene isn't really up to scratch for whatever reason.

The OP is approaching this from a position of concern. Not to be vindictive or embarass a friend.

It is only in MN that I have come across the attitude that being dirty and smelling is acceptable, for people who expect to go into the workplace.

"or somewhere extremely hot and filthy, like a ship's engine or down the mines or something "

You would be expected to start your working time bodily clean.

My Dad was in the Merchant Navy in an Officer capacity, a daily shower, at least, but usually two, would be insisted on, the same applies in the Army.

birdsgottafly summed it up personally, I think you are undermining your own position by not tackling this

confrontation is hard enough at the best of times, but it needs to be tackled head on.

It is also a sign of stress.

Please don't do the 'general reminder' approach, of saying it at a meeting. This, in my opinion, is guaranteed to annoy others, and will not get your message across. Saw it happen in my own workplace, where, instead of addressing one person's bad timekeeping, a 'general reminder' was given at a staff meeting. It gave us the impression that the manager hadn't the courage/ professionalism, to address the issue with the latecomer, and just annoyed the rest of us, especially as it solved nothing.

Dolls, if someone told me to piss off for doing my job I would have no option but to escalate matters.

Thank you for the thoughts. Having considered everything I am concerned, not just from a hygienic perspective but for her mental well being. I need to consider carefully how best to approach it.

Speaking honestly to her is one option, but I am worried that she is not bathing out of choice but necessity - if she can't access her shower for whatever reason. Some other behaviour is peculiar too and I may speak to somebody to see if the appropriate person could speak to her about her health/well being generally.

In short I am worried she can't do many aspects of her role because of her size.

unless you work on your own, with no contact in person with the outside world

Same old same old post dog walk mud splattered jeans, stained hoody, once-white t-shirt, unwashed hair, spotty face, broken nails

Fine as long as no one comes to the door.

But all the op has said is that her clothes are unusual for the season, but you go on to say she doesn't wear gloves, tights or scarf, really? Surely that's personal preference? Perhaps if she is very overweight she struggles to find nice clothes to fit? Or she gets very hot and sweaty, could explain the BO too.

Her hair is unflattering, well frankly it's up to her how she styles her hair.

She wears no make up, it isn't the law to wear make up either.

She smells and has greasy hair, BO isn't always down to bad hygiene, fact, I have been educated on this by seeing my poor dp showering 2 and 3 times a day, trying every deodorant on the market, and still having a problem, made worse when he's hot or anxious.

I suffered terribly from greasy hair and acne in my early 20s, I am very clean, it was hormonal, age and the pill have resolved it nicely.

Maybe she is just a dirty mare, but people trying to diagnose depression through a third party online seems a bit much.

I have worked in an office with people who have body odour, seemingly poor hygiene, nasty perfume, stinky of fags, bad breath and all the rest. But to be honest, unless you're 100% sure or it is affecting their ability to do their job, I think that you have to tread very carefully.

Now you're saying that you're concerned that she's not able to fulfil her role because of her weight?

Sorry but this just sounds like a botch about someone who isn't as preened as all the other office girls. Just my opinion.

If she is bigger than a size 16 it can be hard to buy clothes and I imagine a depressing trip out. Maybe she can get the clothes easily and has lost the interest.

Dolls, I'm sorry, genuinely, if you have taken my post like that.

But if I had posted and asked for advice on how to address issues with a colleague who smelled, the advice would have been along the lines of 'tell her.' I included the other information, not to bitch but to give a full picture of the situation. I genuinely want to help and I am worried about her as a person and as a colleague.

I think you are reacting strongly to this because of your husbands issues, and I recognise how difficult it must be for you, but please, don't assume things about me that simply are not true.

At my husbands 'issues'.

OP, I'm larger than a size 16 and can wear smart clean clothes and fit into a standard size shower, not that this is totally relevant.

I also work in management/HR and agree that it is a difficult situation to address but that it has to be done.

I had to do this to someone who I had known for years and in this instance I hid behind the senior managers, I took the person to one side and explained that it had been brought to my attention that the dress code was slipping in the office and that as a department we needed to improve, it was a very awkward converstation

dolls - do you know that there are things you can do, re excessive sweating and greasy hair (due to hormones - which can be regulated by hormone treatments.)?? Your dp should see a doctor - he may be prescribed medication to reduce sweating, or surgery if it is localised.

He shouldn't suffer this. Even the strong antiperspirants these days are very good - like Triplex, or perspirex.

Google 'hyperhidrosis' - excessive sweating.