To think that the way we are expected to parent in this country is unnatural?

[AndyWarholsBanana]

I don't mean the actual way of parenting, I mean the kind of family set up we have now. In a lot of countries, children are raised in a groups of some sort - either groups of women who all help look after each others' children or in extended families with grandparents, aunts, cousins around - it takes a village to raise a child etc. And having lots of extended family on hand was the norm in this country until pretty recently.
Nowadays, a lot of people move away from their parents to find work or whatever so don't have family nearby.
When I had DS1, I didn't know many people locally and I just remember the crushing isolation of it being just me and a baby for 10 hours a day and having no adult company. I honestly couldn't wait to get back to work.
When I had my third child 8 years later, I knew a lot more people including quite a few who were SAHMs or worked part time. We spent a lot of time in and out of each other's houses and it was always possible to get someone to have your child for a few hours so that you could go shopping or just have a bath. Also, my parents had retired so used to take Ds2 one morning a week. As well as it being great having adult company, it was nice for the kids to have other DCs around a lot of the time for company.
especially as DS2 was a very extrovert baby and seemed to get bored very quickly when he was stuck with just me.
It couldn't have been more different to when I had DS1 and I actually enjoyed it and would have been happy to stay at home longer. I've noticed that in the endless SAHM/WOHM debates, how many women describe going mad with boredom when they were on maternity leave. I just think it's "unnatural" to expect an adult to be with another human being 24/7 without a break and I think women end up feeling guilty because they don't enjoy it. It just feels suffocating and claustrophobic for a lot of people. I know it;s not somehing that's likely to change but just wondered what people thought.

Goldenbear I disagree completely. If you want to really know how people make it difficult to become familiar with each other, move to Denmark.

I do see the attraction in the 'it takes a village' idea, however, I live somewhere that still has this kind of ethos and there are definitely downsides. I see adults who are married and have their own families but because they are still within their parents (or grandparents) sphere of influence they are never allowed to make their own decisions.

I see women who live with their MILs who are incredibly frustrated that their attempts to use modern parenting methods/implement nutritional advice etc etc are constantly and completely undermined by older relatives who 'know better'.

Like DontmindifIdo says the reason that the extended family is looking after the children is often because the physical work of running a household falls to the youngest and fittest, which means that the children are left in the care of those not physically capable of looking after eg an active toddler.

The worst side of it here is that many many parents (in some cases both parents) end up going to work abroad and leaving their children in the care of the extended family. It's seen as a natural extension of the concept of the village raising the child - it doesn't matter if the parent isn't actually there. It's only now that this has been happening for a generation that people are starting to realise that it's really bad for the children.

I grew up with a very close family (all seven of my parents' siblings lived within forty minutes).

My husband and I just moved out of the city to be closer to his family, and I see my mother-in-law and sister-in-laws at least twice a week. Plus my parents are coming to stay with me (I live overseas) for three months after DC2 is born.

I couldn't parent in isolation. I love having family close by, and seeing how much joy it brings my toddler son.

I'm in Brighton and find this to be true RedExpat. My DS goes to a school that is very community orientated but people are very protective of their privacy- you can only go so far with getting to know each other then it kind of plateaus! In fact most of the friendlier Mothers are not British- they are Japanese, Swedish, German. I am friendly with an Italian Mother who was very exasperated with the 'limits' on friendships.

I am a Londoner originally and people definitely did not 'pop' into each other's homes when I was growing up.

Unless we can magically go back in time and gather evidence and data about the mental health of women (of whatever class) then I think it is a safer assumption that the 'rise' of PND is due to better diagnosis than modern living.

See, the baby stage is really such a short period of time, LadyFlumpalot - you might have found living there isolating when you had little ones, but if that's a house you bought to live in for 20+ years, it not being quite right for 6months - 2years of that isn't that bad a deal...

I come from a small farming community in Australia, and grew up there with both sides of my extended family. It was amazing, I knew several of my great grandparents, my cousins are more like siblings, and I was very close to my grandparents. Most of my family still live there but unless you're a farmer or possibly teacher, there isn't much work to be had. I am very fortunate though that here in the south east, we live close to my in laws, who I love dearly and see a lot of

The lack of a close-knit community I do find very hard, however. Though sometimes it is nice that bit everyone knows your business!

*not.

I agree its isolating BUT I like knowing that its me doing the child raising. I see friends who live abroad where the grandparents do the bulk of the child raising and I think the children get so many mixed messages as there are various parenting styles. Also you haven't looked at the parenting styles in these more traditional families. There is often gender stereotyping and smacking is not uncommon. Maybe I'm a bit too much of a control freak but kids are so impressionable and if my parents or dh's parents were more involved, dc would be exposed to- smoking, evangelical religion, a constant stream if daytime tv just to name a few traits!

When I was growing up my mother's mother and 8 siblings and all their children (my cousins) lived within a five mile radius. I did like spending time with my cousins and my gran but they are quite a dysfunctional family so mutual support wasn't really forthcoming. For example my mother's brother lost a 3 month old baby to SIDS and the sister he was closest to stopped talking to him and has barely said a word to him since (25 years on). As I grew up I found living in that environment very stifling. I felt scrutinised and judged. There is a lot of pressure to conform and not to "get above yourself." It just didn't suit me.
I moved to the SE of England a year before my son was born and when he was 8 months we moved to the east midlands. I've been a SAHM since my son was born and I've built my own support network. I now help to run a toddler group and there's rarely a day when I'm on my own. You have to put yourself out there and meet people.
We had the oppotunity recently to move back to my home town but we didn't. I just wouldn't enjoy it. When I was back there recently I was told I was "mad" for having a home birth (it's not even possible to have a hb in Ireland) they all commented on me "still" breastfeeding 7 month old dd and if I lived there I would have the constant questions about why my children aren't baptised.
Being isolated is horrible but it's not inevitable. Being among family isn't necessarily better.

I don't want a village raising my child, I like to do it myself and do it properly. It's bad enough trying to ward off the bad influence of over involved inlaws who haven't a clue and seem desperate to pass on some disastrous habits they infected their own children with, no way would I allow them to have the same power as me and add the entire community to ensure she hadn't a hope.

Sorry Cailin I don't mean to nit pick but just to clarify I know a lot of women in Ireland who have had a home birth it is very limited but possible.

I was listening to one of my Asian colleagues describe having to move into her inlaws house after getting married and having to help out in their home. No doubt once she has children she will have her MIL on hand to 'help' and extended family nearby as well.

OP, does that sound natural to you? Do you want that for yourself?

The problems with some of these 'natural' arrangements is that they are intensely traditional as well. You think you will be amongst people you want to me with space and freedom to leave your children with others. In reality, you have to fit into the social group not of your choosing and perform the role you are allotted.

Also, where do the men fit into all this?

There is no way I would want me and my baby to be part of such a deeply patriarchal gendered community.

In my modern isolated nuclear family. I also have a village to look after my children. They are the childcare I choose and the people we bump into when we go out. There is no rule that a parent must stay indoors.

I totally get that there can be problems with other "systems" as well and I understand that some of the very traditional ones can be equally stifling for some women especially where they're supposed to tow the line and obey in-laws etc. You can be part of a group that doesn't involve any of your family. I did go out all the time with DS1 and was around other people a lot but I didn't talk to many of them so it didn't take the loneliness away. As to where men fit into it - it's just a fact that the vast majority of SAHPs are women because they're the ones who get paid leave.
Like I said, I don't have any answers as our current societal structure is unlikely to change. And I do think that it can be a contributory factor to PND for some women. It is generally accepted that, on average, SAHMs have poorer mental health than WOHMs.

Is it generally accepted that stay at home mothers have poorer mental health? I've never heard that before.

I like the earier poster's idea of choosing a village to help raise the child, but I can see that it helps if you live somewhere that has a high st, a few places to go, you have a bit of spare cash and you are not too introverted.

I also think that our societal structure is what you get when you have money. The recent headlines about loneliness are a case in point. People live alone because they can afford to. Privacy is often valued and once people have money, they get as much of it as they can. It's the very rich that live behind high walls. Like all things, it comes with a price - isolation.

I moved very far away from my family, and indeed my parents had moved very far away from their family, so I am in the same position as them, and my ds is being brought up very similarly to how I was (though my DH is from here, whereas both my parents were foreign to the UK).

So to me, this feel very natural.
We are very much part of the local community but I'm another one who doesn't at all like the idea of people popping in all the time. I like to be sociable when I feel like being sociable.
But then, I've never had a problem with being bored or finding things to do. Being a SAHM has given me the opportunity to do more things, together with ds.

I was lucky enough to move on to a new estate when dd was born, where there were lots of other SAHM's in the same position.
It wasn't quite a "pop in" situation, as we would phone first, but just as spontaneous. I loved it.
There was always someone around to socialise with, or leave the children with, for a few hours.

Its still like that even though many have returned to work. The children bring friends home for tea or sleepovers, with only a moments notice. They go to these friends house too, with the same sort of notice. But it's also amazing how some of their friends, need to plan weeks in advance to accept or give out invitations, because their families just can't seem to be spontaneous or adaptable at all. I know one or two feel quite left out at times, because they are missing out. I feel quite sorry for those kids.

My mental health would definitely suffer without loads of social interaction with family and friends. It's fine if this is your own choice, but I agree with the op that, it is a shame if it is through circumstances rather than choice.

I agree with perlona. The idea of a mix of people raising my child fills me with dread. I was at a party today and watched my niece being passed from pillar to post and it felt uncomfortable. It actually made me feel I had less of a bond with her.
I was quite isolated when I had my child, as I was in another country with no family. I feel the only thing I missed out on was being able to share the loveliness that was my child in the early years.

so where do you get these tribes? I have no immediate family in this country, should I just knit some?

There will be some pattersn over in arts and craft.

I'm sorry, I can't get past the first few posts ... doesn't it seem faintly, well, generalizing tipping into racist to talk like this?

Like when has it been the 'norm' in the UK for us to raise babies as a village? Please, do tell me when.

I'm sorry, I can't get past the first few posts ... doesn't it seem faintly, well, generalizing tipping into racist to talk like this?

What is racist about this thread?

What do you think might be?

I think the question in the title is not racist at all. But I think romaticizing 'indigenous' peoples is edging that way. It's a bit like saying 'oh, those natives, such wonderful parents', isn't it?

I expect that is not what was intended, but FFS, if we're going to romaticize another system of raising children, it'd be nice to know what system and where, rather than vague generalizations about past times or faraway places.