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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to think this hardship payment is slightly unfair?

176 replies

RoseRedder · 05/12/2013 20:06

An old friend of mine contacted me to ask if I would buy his asda vouchers from him so he could shop at farmfoods and put some money on his electricity meter.

It transpires that his ESA benefit has been stopped (no appeal) and he applied for a crisis loan however this no longer exist so was given a hardhip payment which was 2 cards for Asda each with £10 on that can be used for food (so no tobacco etc)

I had heard that this was being considered but I didn't realise it had happened?

Is this not the equivalent of saying benefit claimants can't be trusted, or I'm I reading to much in to it?

The other problem is he has no Asda within walking distance and no money to get the bus there and back to one (£3) but does have an Aldi, Lidl, farmfoods and Iceland close by.

Would it not make more sense to be able to use shops that offer more value for money?

OP posts:
GobbySadcase · 05/12/2013 23:38

Admiral there is stuff going on. The WOW petition for example. But whilst the media largely ignores the campaigners asking them to feature what is really happening out here many people are oblivious.

The BBC featured my family on a bedroom tax item. Mum was asked by someone she knows why I did that as "surely any money that gets cut will just be given back to them by the DSS".

I really think there are more out there that are clueless rather than heartless. But it's hard to keep that thinking up when constantly confronted by the "I'm alright Jack" brigade.

Fannydabbydozey · 05/12/2013 23:41

I actually despair of the situation for so many people in this country. It makes me gag to read papers like the Evening Standard where everything is on the up and luxury is back. For some yes, but for so many people life is bleak. I thank my lucky stars day in day out that things are better this year than last and I have very little to moan about. But I have friends and family who are really struggling. I grew up very poor on what would be considered a sink housing estate. It was pretty shit. I'm terrified of being that poor again. But at least I know and can empathise with what it is like to count every fucking penny. To so many people on this forum, the choice of eating or heating is just something they read about. I work with people like this. Who have no empathy for those less well off. They will never ever understand until it happens to them or one of their friends or family. Shit happens. Probably more often than those ivory tower twats would like to admit.

Misspixietrix · 05/12/2013 23:43

Its not hypothetical Rose would he accept help from Support Worker? Its a Nil/Zero income claim where as gobby suggested he takes bank statements etc in and proves that is his only income. They can then assess him as 'Nil Income' and pay it for him. I'm assuming they would need proof of ESA claim which is why I'm assuming the crafty bastards closed it. Could you ring DWP up and ask if they Still do what was termed a Rapid reclaim? Just to get his case re opened.

GobbySadcase · 05/12/2013 23:45

The MS society may be able to help with advocacy too

timidviper · 05/12/2013 23:59

I have no problem with emergency payouts being restricted to certain items only, not because I want to punish those in need, but because I want to protect the children and families of those who would spend it on drugs, alcohol, gambling, etc but agree there needs to be more common sense involved.

I volunteer at a food bank and it has really opened my eyes to just how hard life is for some people

hoppingmad · 06/12/2013 00:10

I think it's naive to assume that giving restricted vouchers will prevent people with drug or alcohol dependency using them to fund their addiction. There will simply be a black market for the vouchers.

The voucher scheme will only impact the genuinely needy

sutekidane · 06/12/2013 00:26

I agree that it's naive to think it prevents money being spent on alcohol or drugs etc. There's a local Facebook selling site thing where I live and there's always people popping up on there offering their healthy start vouchers for half the value so they can get cash. I obviously don't know what they spend it on but it would be easy to take that money and put it towards anything.

IneedAsockamnesty · 06/12/2013 00:29

pirate

I coud be wrong because I haven't been not my office since 28/10 so haven't had a chance to check but it is my understanding that form GL24 is no longer in use for any decisions made on or after 28/10/13

IneedAsockamnesty · 06/12/2013 00:30

Haven't been in, in not bloody not

ParsingFancy · 06/12/2013 00:33

Asylum seekers forbidden from working while they waited (years) for their cases to be processed used to be given vouchers.

The effects were so appalling the local nuns used to buy them for full value in cash, so people could do basic things like make phone calls or pay bus fares (no small problem when they had to sign in regularly at designated police stations miles away).

LeonardWentToTheOfficeChristma · 06/12/2013 00:39

Tryharder Thu 05-Dec-13 20:54:52
Massively unfair to call someone who works in a job centre and who is doing a difficult and not very well paid job "a scrote"

Actually I used to work there, it is pretty well paid and actually one if the managers there was always calling the customers "scrotes" so actually not that massively unfair imo.

timidviper · 06/12/2013 00:43

hopping and sute Good point and I probably am naïve as I have been lucky enough to never experience these vouchers, it just makes me very sad. People who buy these vouchers at a profit should be totally and utterly ashamed of themselves

RoseRedder · 06/12/2013 00:43

IamInvisble

I agree with everything you are saying.

My ds1 is 20 and also cant believe why the injustice is in this country.

I suppose it's really going to fuck off the benefit bashers if they look at this thread I started

i've sent people Christmas cards on taxpayers money and bought stamps too

OP posts:
IneedAsockamnesty · 06/12/2013 00:54

what is a zero income claim? His flat is a housing association flat (supported accomdation) and they told him he needed a qualfying benefit to receive housing benefit. If you could point me in the right direction that would be amazing. I've googled but only got hits that say it's hypothetically possible. If this is an actual thing

A nil/zero income claim is a claim for HB made on the sole basis of income amount (obviously the amount being 0 but they are not restricted to nil income recipients you can also get them with a low income and no benefits)

A passport benefit is not the only way to claim HB but he will have to explain exactly how he's not starved to death,most of the forms actually contain that question obviously worded more politely. Proof this exists here

www.norwich.gov.uk/CouncilTaxAndBenefits/HousingBenefit/Documents/NilIncomeDeclarationForm.pdf

He needs to ask for a nil income statement or declaration in order to make a nil income claim tell him to use that precise sentence because if you live in a especially bollocky LA they will deny its existence if you don't use the correct words and they get away with doing it by saying well xyz does not exist Hmm no shit Sherlock but did you not work out that the 'not on benefits' form equals nil income declaration.

garlicbaubles · 06/12/2013 01:14

Piratecat, the 'mandatory reconsideration' for ESA is now law.
For those who still haven't grasped the Stasi-like quality of this:

You're too disabled or ill to work.

You're sent to see a dental nurse or similar, who is employed by the DWP, via Atos, to find a given percentage of her claimants fit for work. She hasn't read your doctor's notes or heard of your condition. Because you were able to sit or stand at your appointment, she finds you fit. (They find people on permanent oxygen therapy, on drips, and in hospital fit. And did you know about the hypothetical wheelchair they legally use, to prove you could get around in a wheelchair if you had one?)

You protest this finding, and are sent a reconsideration form. This says the DWP will reconsider the decision it made. You are not told who will reconsider it, on what basis, or when. The mandatory period is indefinite.

While waiting for this 'reconsideration', you're not entitled to ESA so are told to claim JSA. In order to claim JSA, you're required to sign a document saying you are fit and able to work.

Having signed that you're fit, you're placed on a Work Programme which will involve making a large number of cold calls by phone, email and in person. You have to do this, regardless of your health issues, because of the agreement you've signed. If the Jobcentre person feels you haven't done enough, or even shown the right attitude, they can instantly stop your payments for up to three years. Your payments are stopped if you are ill; this includes going to necessary hospital appointments.

When your JSA is stopped ('sanctioned') your housing benefit & council tax benefit can also be stopped. You will have to apply for discretionary payments from the council, and you can imagine how that's going to work out.

You have to do all this while you're sick.

When your reconsideration eventually gets done, you will either have given up entirely or proved you're capable of full-time work activity. Catch-22.

The automatic right to a court appeal (tribunal) no longer exists. You can appeal the reconsideration, if you're still functioning by then, on points of law only. Thus, you must know the law. Which IDS changes three times a week (no exaggeration, I counted for a few months earlier this year.)

This process is to be navigated by people who can't walk some days, are already stressed beyond belief and have weakened immune systems. A High Court has just found the DWP's claims process discriminatory against sufferers of mental illness; it went to High Court because the department appealed an earlier court finding. The DWP is now considering whether to appeal further to the Supreme Court.

garlicbaubles · 06/12/2013 01:17

Crossed with several useful posts. Took a long time to type (and upset me, as I'll probably be facing this myself in the new year.)

SoonToBeSix · 06/12/2013 01:23

No definitely not unreasonable.

Misspixietrix · 06/12/2013 06:24

garlicbauble did the DWP tell you that the automatic right to appeal to the courts has been scrapped? Ou would seriously tell them to fuck right off you are challenging that given they should NOT have any kind of jurisdiction like that over the Country's Legal Processes.

piratecat · 06/12/2013 07:33

garlic. have been through the whole thing this yearSad too.

i knew they could drag their heels with the mandatory reconsideration now.

i am sure you can still take it to tribunal. the tribunal service is an independent service.

i believe i got it wrong about the form.
you have to get the form directly from tribunal service.

the tribunal service is there for all types of claims.

don't give up.

piratecat · 06/12/2013 07:42

garlic.
i am on my phone so can't do proper search but do check about that points of law thing.

if you don't win at tribunal 1st tier (court procedure with independent doctor and judge) then you can try the 2nd tier-points of law.

which as you say most ill people will give up at.

Birdsgottafly · 06/12/2013 10:43

These vouchers have always been given to Teenagers, who live independently in Hostels, supported accommodation etc.

SS also have a basic hamper of food and toiletries that they can give, if there is a crisis, it is Asda Value and depressing.

Many of these are Care Leavers aged between 15-20, as well as those who don't have families to help. I have met abused, Gay etc Teens whose families just didn't want to help or accept them through their issues.

I never thought about Teens in this position until I found a relative, that I never knew, who lived in a Teen Hostel. I took her to live with me.

These have got to be one of the most vulnerable (and blameless, even for the Benefit/Poir Bashers), yet they are treated appallingly and not given what people seem to think they are, in terms if Help and Support.

I hate Free Cycle and these "cash for clothes" places because it doesn't direct goods to those that really need them.

Asda vouchers are also given for household goods, for some if them who are outside the full Benefit System.

They get an advisor who shops online at Wilkinsons or Asda.

apocketfulofposy · 06/12/2013 10:50

I can see the point of it,but it would be better if they were accepted at a wide range for those who cant get to the nearest asda or whatever.

I just think of those families who are on benefits who complain of having little money to feed their kids but always have enough for fags and cans of beer.I dont think they should be able to spend money on those things,they are luxuries,food is not.

And those families do exist,my husband comes across them all the time at work,they get sent from the job centre and they dont bother going back after a few days because they cant be arsed to work for money when they can get it from doing nothing,thats why most of my husbands workforce is polish or bulgarian,they are the only ones that stay.

garlicbaubles · 06/12/2013 14:24

Thanks to piratecat and pixietrix for the new information! I wasn't aware of this technicality, despite being a member of several activist/support groups. I'm going to discuss it there.

As you agreed, the process does apply incredible pressure on those who're already suffering. I'm not at all surprised that benefit-related suicides are climbing so quickly.

To everyone complaining about parents buying fags/booze/drugs instead of food for their children - do you honestly believe that policing every claimant's shopping will stop that? They're already so addicted and/or selfish they put their cravings before their kids' health. Of course they'll find a way to sell their vouchers or the food they buy with them. Meanwhile responsible parents, and those without children, will be facing impossible journeys and staring at empty fuel meters. It's enough to turn an honest claimant to drugs.

Seff · 06/12/2013 16:16

I should be shocked at some of the things I've read in this thread, but sadly, I'm not.

Dawndonnaagain · 06/12/2013 16:52

I just think of those families who are on benefits who complain of having little money to feed their kids but always have enough for fags and cans of beer.I dont think they should be able to spend money on those things,they are luxuries,food is not.
Yes they exist, but they are few and far between and why should the rest of us lose our choices because of a minority.

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