To think that it's ok to want to bring up your children and to be a mother, just as it's ok to go out to work instead?

[bronya]

I was brought up to 'have a career' and to think about work not babies. I admit I'd be bored doing nothing, and love the tutoring that I do - but I have no wish at ALL to be the main wage earner and leave the childcare to someone else. When my DS was born, it felt like I was complete. I'm happier, have more self esteem and confidence than I've ever had. I've met many other mums who feel similarly. Surely, our choice is just as valid as those who are WOHM? The point of feminism was that we should have that choice - whichever one we choose is our decision, surely?

Personally I suspect an awful lot more families with 2x wp are living beyond their means re mortgages- hence the whining for help with childcare.

one of these families in financial terms and show having a SAHP would help them.

could you give an example of one of these families in financial terms and show having a SAHP would help them.

Pick a figure.How long is a piece of string?It varies hugely.

I know lots of people in houses it takes two to fund they could easily downsize from or live in a cheaper area.

lets go with the uk average. so two people both earning 26k, living in the SE.

in what ways are they living beyond their means?
and how would having a SAHP benefit them?

Who is suggesting having a Sahp would help?Just pointing out that your assumption all families with 2x wp are financially secure and save isn't necessarily so.

Families differ,some save before to fund a sahp,some cut their cloth after.Some with 2wp never save and like to live in nice houses and have holidays.Horses for courses.Not sure why either should be treated differently or supported more.

Dp's family all live in the SE,we don't,much as dp would like us to.

and how would having a SAHP benefit them? = you are proposing they should downsize and have a SAHP for great financial stability.

how do the numbers work?

No simply pointing out that having 2x salaries doesn't necessarily make you more secure and that having a mortgage easily covered by one salary is safest as chances are it's very unlikely both parents would find themselves in the situation that they were both too unwell to work.

If the mortgage payer lost his/her job worst case scenario both could get lower paid work to cover said mortgage.

Having 2 jobs and a big mortgage to match you're always going to need 2 to fund it.Obviously a small mortgage easily covered by one and both working would be even safer but it doesn't seem to happen like that does it- families and situations differ hence the pointlessness of blanket assumptions that all 2 x wp families are swimming in cash and have kids far better off due to pony riding lessons and the rest of it.

If all families with 2 x wp are like that there really is no need for help with childcare.

One earner means that in the event of job loss the entire household income is gone in one go. No fall back of a second salary. Should the relationhip break down the SAHP has no means of financially providing for the children and could take months to find work as emplloyers want recent experience.

Two salaries means a safety net should one lose their job and gives both parties the means of financial support should they split.

The mortgage is a red herring as banks will lend x times salary to one earner and if two earners its not much more. The bank never took into account my salary just dh's.

The state paying people to be SAHPs achieves nothing, assisting with childcare costs means people keep their jobs and will go onto to not need help when children are older, they may get pay rises or promotions etc. They will remain tax payers, the chidcare provider will be a tax payer and the child will likely be one in the future having grown up seeing that work is something you do to finance choices in life.

Its funny how the children of woking mums will go off the rails, i suspect stories in the press will say different. Its the actual parenting that makes a child behave how they do, having a SAHP doesnt equal angelic child

As for just SAHPs volunteering, i dont find that the case at all. Our PTA are all working parents and the governors all work.

Personally I suspect an awful lot more families with 2x wp are living beyond their means re mortgages- hence the whining for help with childcare.

can you give one example of this type of family's income and explain how downsizing and SAHP would help them manage financial risk better?

one example? with numbers, not your vague assertions!

Erm many families with 2 x wp aren't tax payers,or pay buggar all tax as aren't childcare providers.I was a childminder for 4 years and never paid a penny in tax,I made sure I never did hours which brought me over the threshold,I know hoards who do the same.

Happy many people are covered if they lose their job.My dp is covered for a year ditto my sister.In a year he could easily get the same,work away from home,contract or we old easily get 2 low paid jobs to cover the same.A lot of families with a sahp have the bases covered as they need to.Many with 2 salaries fly by the seat of their pants.One size does not fit all.

Mortgage companies do take into account second salaries,having just updated our mortgage it was eye watering what we could borrow if I worked.

Oh and having a sahp doesn't mean kids don't see work paying for choices.We busted a gut to get 3 degrees,a house and savings before we had kids so we had the choice and my dc could enjoy having a sahp which they love.

My 3 are incredibly hard workers and know if they want a sahp they too will have to bust a gut to have one.

many families with 2 x wp aren't tax payers,or pay buggar all tax

so families with low incomes with two working parents. how would SAH help them financially? should the state not help them?

and you busted a gut in the past. busting a gut is what most people do most the time. its not a reason to think you are marvellous!

oh now wait you worked your hours to maximise your benefit and minimise the tax you paid.

I don't know why you have such a problem with other people being helped.

You seem to be putting words into my mouth.

2 non tax payers with TC wouldn't benefit from having a sahp but them both working doesn't benefit the state financially- simply pointing that out.

Never said I was marvellous.

Never claimed benefits thanks bar CB for 9 years.Dp pays plenty of tax thanks as have I and will do in the future.

Nope didn't fiddle my tax to suit me.I minded for teachers and part timers who didn't want to pay for the hols and I didn't want to work them.In order to keep my setting top quality I kept my numbers down.You can also claim for heating etc so I was always just under.

The vast maj of minimum wage workers in nurseries won't be paying tax either I'm sure,ditto others on low wages.

"your benefit" does not means "you claimed benefits"

I read what you write.

if your DP pays loads of tax, you must have a high income so what is the problem?

My problem is the demonising of sahp by the gov/media,the lack of help for those that would like to be one for a period of time and the unfairness.

I don't see this demonising of SAHP around me. It's a perfectly valid choice for families who want to have one parent at home, but it's not 'better', it's simply a different choice, and no one deserves to be rewarded for it by the state. If you want to be a SAHP, you do it because you believe in it, it offers the lifestyle you want, so I don't really understand the complaining and seeming resentment about it (which to be fair is not most SAHP)

neither do I. I think you want validation by the govt. I don't get any validation by the govt for my life choices.

I pay them tax. that's about it. if you want anything from the govt you will always be disappointed. and this applies to pretty much all of us.

Sigh.

I am old. Old enough to remember a cold war childhood. I remember when one of the many horrors of communism was little children being taken away from the bosom of family, and put into institutions all day so their mothers could work in factories or whatever. Oh the horror!

Seems capitalism has more handily accomplished what the "Godless Communists" failed to. He, he.

Personally, I don't care what other people do. Within reason, I consider it their family, their business. I am content with my choices. What does irk me is the fact that so many families don't feel they have a choice. And that can cut both ways...can't afford to work, can't afford not to work, depending where they live what their job are etc.

I am sure if little kids were given the choice 99% would plump for "mummy!" rather than childcare. (And I said "mummy" not "parent" on purpose.) Of course, they would also like to stay up till 10pm every night, never take a bath and eat candy for dinner. So perhaps their opinions aren't all that relevant!

Ok so if sahp don't need rewarding I don't think wp should be either.

The gov saying a family with 2 x working parents are the families that want to get are inferring those without 2 aren't and are threfore demonising.There has been demonising aplenty on MN and in the media."Motherism" is now a term.

We don't have the money for sweeties for those that don't need it so they should pick a household salary deemed wealthy and not needy of help and stick with it. Then treat universal benefits such as CB,childcare help and school dinners exactly the same.A transferable tax allowance should be available for those in that bracket too.

You can then take your pick and no choice is seen as more worthy than any other.

That is the fair way but then the Condems don't care about fairness so like
many I shall just sit tight until the next election.

Oh and I think wanting and needing your mummy is a little different to wanting and needing hours of TV,it's kind of sad the two are now are seen as equal.

'Two salaries means a safety net should one lose their job.'

Not if they depend on both to pay the bills..

You could argue that a family with a SAHP has, in effect, a reserve worker.
The only people who wouldn't be screwed if someone lost their job or they split up is someone who could comfortably afford to run a household totally on their own, which is not many people.

What the govt wants is good parenting. That, along with other factors such as educational level of parents, is what's most likely to lead to positive outcomes for children. And positive outcomes for children means less money spent on mopping up problems of anti social behaviour, mental health problems, youth unemployment etc.
If there were a clear link between SAHP and better outcomes, believe me I'm damn sure the govt would be chasing women back into the home pronto. Call me a cynic, but I really think they would. As there is no link, they don't reward people financially for making what is essentially a personal choice to be a SAHP. Like I say, nothing wrong with that choice, but to expect some kind of reward for it is nonsensical

I bought into the 'reserve worker' safety net notion when I was a SAHP . When my dh was faced with redundancy I discovered that my excellent references, qualifications and experience all out of date and I could not get work.

A health scare made me realise that while we could manage on dh's income alone, we could not afford childcare when I was ill.

Its a shame people are being so defensive, if you work full time you are literally handing over your child over to someone to look after during the day, no-ones claiming you're no longer a parent buts it obvious someone else is doing the lion share of the actual caring/looking after.

A SAHM is doing all the nitty gritty, without the respect of 'a proper job' its very different.

But presumably if you are a SAHP you are doing it because you want to, and with the financial and emotional support, and respect, of your partner. Why this constant seeking of approbation from other sources?

Surely people gain self esteem from various sources. I gain it from being a wife, parent , friends and yes from my career too. I certainly don't expect a pat on the back from the govt and I don't understand why some SAHP seem to be so resentful. If you enjoy being a SAHP then embrace it.