to call this is sex discrimination at our local Children's Centre?

[learnasyougo]

Our local children's centre runs weekly 'Stay and Play' drop in sessions on a weekday morning. My husband (SAHD) often goes to these with our toddler son. It's mostly mums, but there is another father who goes occasionally, too.

Being a weekday morning I can never go (to spend time with DS and see him interact with other children), as I work full time.

Once a month, on a Saturday morning, the same centre runs a 'Dads' Stay and Play' drop-in, so working fathers can a) have the same sort of experience with their children and b) have somewhere to go to give SAHM a break, presumably. I know not all fathers have Saturdays free, but presumably a shift-working father would be able to make the weekly one from time to time, at least.

So my husband asked when the next one would be because his wife (me) would like to go.

"Oh no. It's men only" was the reply. He said his wife works full time, though "yes, a few people have complained about that" but it was left at that.

This is sex discrimination, right? I qualify in every other way, except for the Y chromosome. I can understand a men-only space if this were some sort of support group or talking therapy and having women about might inhibit men.

I'm really annoyed by it. I'm wondering whether they'd actually turn me away if I turned up. I would love to see him in a social environment, interacting with other children and playing with other sorts of toys we don't have at home, and give DH a break. I was annoyed enough at everything on a Saturday always being a 'dads' whatever, yet the regular, normal event is never described as a 'mums' event - a reverse of the 'men as default' so prevalent elsewhere in society.

So, should I just turn up anyway? Next one isn't until next month.

I expect it is down to funding issues, CCs funding has been cut massively.

I don't think the Dads groups should be compromised as there is a need. I read lots on here about how intimidating some Mums find parent and toddler groups, I know from my experience of running one that men do find them hard to access. Dad only groups are a good thing.

When funds get cut, those in the greatest need are prioritised rightly so.

I agree with Amber - times have changed and it's not like the early days of CCs where groups were available to everyone (and often ended up taken over by middle class SAHMs who were pleased to find free baby massage). Money is tighter, CCs are more accountable, and target groups have to be prioritised over working mums who just want to see their DC interacting with other children unfortunately. But there is nothing to stop the OP trying to set up her own Saturday toddler group or just taking her DC to softplay and watching them there.

I don't have an issue with men's only groups. But does this mean people will stop attacking women's only groups as "sexist"?

PeriodFeatures

Genuine question, not being narky - this - Men really really need opportunities to socialise and meet other fathers. Mums have automatically got access to networks and support.

How do mums 'automatically' have support?

If they are working Mon-Fri 9-5 where is this coming from?

When i had my baby i did not automatically have support. I relied on the CC to meet other mums with babies. Fortunately in my area the provision is very good and you do not need to be a disabled teenage crack addict to attend. They do however have the dads groups at the weekend and nothing for mothers who have returned to work. It is a bit of a shame because the dads group does not have a massive attendance as far as i am aware and it is the only group on at the weekend so plenty of space to run a more inclusive group alongside. However it does probably come down to funding.

revoltingpeasant yes, good point. I didn't articulate that very well.

What I meant to say is that mothers have support networks in place before babies are born. There are midwives, health visitors, lots of groups that are tailored towards supporting mothers and helping mums build their social and informal support networks.

From the offest ALL this support is focused at Mum and Baby. Men are not expected to attend health appointments and often when they do they are excluded. HV will undertake an initial assessment and ask lots of questions which determine parenting capacity. Men are generally not involved in this process.

Men are not often asked how they are coping with new parenthood, the language used by health professionals doesn't promote equality in parenting.
'Does he help you?' 'how are you finding motherhood?'

The benefits system favours mothers. Tax credits will be paid to mother iven in two seperated parents have equal arrangements.

Men, due to this have LESS POWER than women when it comes to parenting. Groups are often formed to address power imbalances.

Dh went to the equivalent group at our CC once. There were 3 dads and a female CC worker. One of the dads hired out soft play equipment for parties and things and catered for the group. So effectively two dads, a CC worker and a dad bringing his kids along to an event he is working at.

I used to go to tumble tots, soft play, toddler art groups and playgroups pretty much daily at the time. There were always more dads than that at everything.

YANBU! I was so upset to be excluded from the CC once I went back to work.

Part of the key role of a children's centre is to promote parent engagement & education and offering a range of provision to make that information accessible to ALL parents.

There are several reasons why they have Dad only stay & plays.
Children's centres are often usually staffed by majority female staff. They also collect a lot of information & feedback from their users.

Substantial feedback from fathers said that they felt more comfortable coming into the setting if they knew other Dad's would be there. Many felt outnumbered or judged at general stay & plays, and certainly didn't feel it was a safe place for seeking support. By having a Father's only session it gives that guarantee.

It also allows targeted information that is relevant to fathers to be given at those sessions and allows fathers to make connections & get support from other fathers.

Children's centres also often offer other targeted stay & plays- for childminders, Speakers of additional languages, Bengali mothers or teenage parents. They try and aim sessions at 'hard to reach' or groups that don't attend the general stay & plays. Those groups deserve a safe place, where they can access the same information that the rest of us can easily access already. Would you feel discriminated about being excluded from those to?

I am sure they also offer general parent stay & plays.

Why do people feel the need to be offended or discriminated against? These groups make a world of difference to people that need it- please don't ruin it for them.

Our local church/community centre has the same thing. A weekday toddler group for all parents/child carers, and a Saturday one for dads only.
Always seemed unfair to me

"I am sure they also offer general parent stay & plays." But not at a time when working parents can access them, if they did then this wouldn't be problem, no-one minds a dad only group.

Why aren't working parents regarded as a hard to reach group because they certainly seem like they are and they need the chance to meet with and share support with other parents too.

Because women are expected to either not work, or only work part time. Outmoded ideas about the realities for many mothers.

Working parents aren't a priority group, because they are generally able to pay for activities for their children at the weekend if they want to, children will often be in nursery during the week, working parents can use other support networks.

The government isn't funding opportunities for working parents to go to toddler groups at the weekend because it isn't worth their while to do so, basically.

Since the funding cuts- the priorities have had to be refocused to the groups that can have a major impact in areas of concern health, attainment or other issue. Working parents, as a gross generalisation are not a concern group or considered 'hard to reach'. They usually have enough resource to access services independently. Now if you happen to be a single working parent, or a parent of multiple births (or fit into some other target group then there is probably a group for you) They hopefully still have family support workers (some boroughs still have some!) They can make housecalls at a time convenient for working parents that need support & signpost to other suitable services.

There used to be a lot more on offer- but so much has been shut down/reduced.

There is also the issue of Dads who have access to their children at weekends. I have seen a flyer in the past that was directed at Dads in that position.

Maybe CCs could only open 4 days a week but 2 of those be Saturday and Sunday - it would reduce the hours so would cost them less but they could run things at times that would better suit the people who'd use them.

Just because you are working it doesn't mean you have any more spare money for more expensive activities than those not working - lots of working families, both dual and lone parent, are just about getting by.

The bottom line is that targetting working parents is less important because it doesn't improve outcomes for disadvantaged children. Cutting weekday services for priority groups in order to cater for non-priority groups is never going to happen.

So why does targeting working dads improve outcomes for disadvantaged children?

Positive involvement of fathers in their children's early years does improve outcomes for children. Fathers' groups have been found to be one way of increasing fathers' involvement.

I know my CC wouldn't turn people away, but we did get slated by Ofsted recently based on the postcodes of people attending the groups (being the wrong ones). How are CCs supposed to get round that? Presumably Ofsted would rather people were turned away, or maybe groups were made invite only?

Grennie - They are not only targeting working Dads, but all Dads.
I'm sure it's obvious to most people how having a father involved in their child's learning & improving their parenting skills will improve outcomes.

Some CCs might schedule their sessions on a Saturday because of custody/availability of space/survey of the local need.

If people really felt passionate about their CC needing to offer a wider range of services to families, they should communicate that with their local CC & MP and also consider the issue when voting next election.

YANBU, it is unfair (if understandable given targets & funding), and since returning to work full time myself I have noticed the lack of provision at weekends. Our local playgroup (privately run) do themed one-offs on a Saturday in the school holidays. They sell out. As a teacher, I really appreciate their offer, as most groups don't run in the school holidays. I can see why you don't want to start your own though - setting up a successful group is hard work!

Childminders groups are no longer a target group - not that we ever got much funding at our CCs.

I've set up, or helped to set up no less than 4 playgroups at various Centres and they've all followed the same pattern: in the beginning, we all work well in partnership, we share planning and resources for the whole CC and the childminders are treated as equals.

Then, invariably, the rot sets in. The Centre becomes busier and management starts to resent that room let out to us. We're passed from room to room, or we're discouraged from attending.
Finally, the funding is reduced or cut and we're thrown out. Happens every time.

Where I live, they've sold off many of the CCs to a private nursery chain. All that public money that was ploughed in to making the CCs a really fantastic place for children has been for a private entrepreneur's benefit. I see this happening more and more in the future.

why can't men just have there own group, with a rest from women.. I think this is a good thing