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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think that people arguing against equal parental leave rights want discrimination against women?

77 replies

MinesAPintOfTea · 29/11/2013 13:09

This is all over the news today, and listening to the "balanced" debate on Jeremy Vine over lunch I was getting very annoyed. The argument against seemed to be that men should be going out to earn money and are useless with babies.

And worse the argument that it will be bad for small businesses. If those small businesses aren't already discriminating against women (even if they do so discretely) then it would have no impact on average against the group. In fact the flexibility element might even help them out more.

And breathe...

OP posts:
akachan · 29/11/2013 20:28

Both already have the right to request flexable working.

NoArmaniNoPunani · 29/11/2013 20:28

So if the woman is an sahm does the man get a year?

I didn't think SAHMs were entitled to paid mat leave. I thought you had to be working for a number of weeks before and during pregnancy to get it

StealthPolarBear · 29/11/2013 20:31

So th mans leave is dependent on the woman's?

akachan · 29/11/2013 20:32

I'm prett sure it isn't dependant on the woman working but I may be wrong.

WestieMamma · 29/11/2013 20:33

I'm in Sweden we get 480 days parental leave to split between us, which can be taken at any point between now and when the child is 7 (I think). It's wonderful because DH got to take a month off with me when DS was born, then work 3 days a week for 6 months and now works 4 days a week. On his parental days he takes on primary carer role and I love seeing the bond they have.

working9while5 · 29/11/2013 20:37

A right to request is useless for many considering how rarely and on what spurious grounds it is often denied.

HopSkipJumpFroggyHopSkipJump · 29/11/2013 20:40

What happens with separated parents?
Can a dad demand his ex goes back to work half way through for him to have time off? (my ex would doubtlessly have done this if he could have despite seeing her 3-4 hours a month max as it is...)

HopSkipJumpFroggyHopSkipJump · 29/11/2013 20:40

Agree with sock, I can see this having an awful outcome in abusive relationships.

Binnky · 29/11/2013 20:42

No the mother would have to confirm she is returning to work for the leave to flip. An ex partner could not compel an ex to return to work without her consent!

akachan · 29/11/2013 20:44

So the mother has to work for the father to get it? Seems extremely unfair to me, the reverse is not true. My DH doesn't work but I'm still planning to take maternity leave!

Binnky · 29/11/2013 20:47

Akachan - yes because sahms are not entitled to paid maternity leave so there is no leave entitlement to flip. Presumably if someone is a sahm there is no need to flip the leave by the very nature that they are already at home?

ClaraDeLaNoche · 29/11/2013 20:49

I am completely lost here. Less than 1% of men take Additional Paternity Leave. We already have a statutory right to parental leave but no one really takes it. I like Jo Swinson but I think this rally of hers is disingenuous. The cultural reasons why men don't take the leave are the problem, and the legislation which is more or less in place already is not changing it. She should be looking at mandatory equal pay audits and tackling that first.

akachan · 29/11/2013 20:50

But I thought the point was for men to be able to see their babies. Likewise in theory I don't need maternity leave as my husband is at home but I'd be devastated to be unable to take any leave :(

womblesofwestminster · 29/11/2013 20:57

But I thought the point was for men to be able to see their babies. Likewise in theory I don't need maternity leave as my husband is at home but I'd be devastated to be unable to take any leave

Precisely. How is this equality??

Binnky · 29/11/2013 20:57

I get your point totally. I dont't think the issue is so that men can see there babies mire per se. More that eave entitlement should not only be available to women, but that it should be able to be shared amongst couples as is convenient to them - many women these days are higher earners, or couples may have all sorts of other reasons why the mother wishes to return to work sooner.

MinesAPintOfTea · 29/11/2013 20:59

aka it seems fair to me: part of maternity leave is about coping with very late pregnancy and physical recovery from the birth. The father can never do that part, so is only needed to provide a parent at home for the baby. If the mother is already doing that then generally there isn't much of a case for the father to do it.

I wasn't employed when pregnant, I didn't get maternity pay, so yes getting any pay for a parent being at home is dependent on the mother working. It also meant DH couldn't take this leave, but we couldn't have afforded the only earning adult in the family to drop to SMP anyway.

Looking at who is eligible for it:

Scenario 1: Both work
Can choose who will stay at home and receive SMP from 2 weeks post-birth up to 50 weeks, changing at any point.

Scenario 2: Father works, mother doesn't
Father gets first two weeks of paternity pay, no-one gets any SMP.

Scenario 3: Mother works, father doesn't
Mother can have SMP until she chooses to return to work (for up to a year). But she is sole breadwinner so is unlikely to be able to stay off all that long (as SMP drops as time goes on).

The aim is that parents can choose who stays at home to care for a young baby whilst also enabling physical recovery of the mother. The government will only pay this for parents who are in employment during the pregnancy, having a SAHP is not funded by the government. This sucks for those of us who did not choose to not work but who have a household income too high for means-tested benefits, but there are people far worse off.

OP posts:
ClaraDeLaNoche · 29/11/2013 21:01

Theoretically a man could take two weeks paternity leave, then four weeks parental leave, then after the baby is six months, take six months leave. That is the law today. But the evidence shows that they don't take it. And yes it would be unpaid (except for SPP) but the woman's rate is pretty low anyway. I'm not saying there shouldn't be change, it's just that I don't see many men (who could afford it) taking the leave they are already entitled to.

akachan · 29/11/2013 21:05

Thanks Tea, that's a useful summary.

I'm scenario 3 and will not be able to take much, you're right. Saving like crazy now (while TTC) to extend it.

I suppose it just seems to me that it should just be equal.

janey68 · 29/11/2013 21:10

It would be interesting to know why so few men currently take the transferable leave available to them... It's easy to make assumptions about things and think it must be because they aren't interested in doing it, but I guess it could be equally likely that some women are possessive about the 52 weeks leave and would prefer to keep it for themself... I don't know, would be interesting to hear from couples who've had babies while that has been an option

I know I'd have given my right arm for that though- to be able to split leave 50:50. Much as I loved my leave, I think it would have been great for DH to experience it too , and wonderful for our children

akachan · 29/11/2013 21:13

I assume they don't take it because they can't afford to.

ClaraDeLaNoche · 29/11/2013 21:15

Yes Janey I agree with you about the possibility of women being possessive and thinking of it as their time with the baby. I took six months off with both of mine and loved it, I'm actually glad we didn't have the option then which is completely selfish I know, but I kind of felt it was a bit if a break after being pregnant.

Chunderella · 29/11/2013 21:28

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

EthelredOnAGoodDay · 29/11/2013 21:32

I think in lots of cases it's not taken up now because families can't afford to. My DH took a full fortnight of paternity leave with both of our DC, but that's because his company pay him in full for those two weeks.

Just as an aside, did anyone hear the bloke on Jeremy Vine's programme who said that if this legislation was brought in, most small companies would just stop employing all men and women of child bearing age. So essentially, all men then?! Confused

brettgirl2 · 29/11/2013 21:45

lol ethel Grin . Men will potentially be disadvantaged In the workplace then. The government pays smp anyway so a lot of nonsense is talked imo.

I don't understand the abuse points. Most relationships aren't abusive anyway so why curb everyone elses liberty around this?

Yes it's cultural but making equality legally possible is surely the first step. ....

scissy · 30/11/2013 16:50

DH and I looked at him taking parental leave under the current rules as we were both keen on the idea. However, we soon realised it made no financial sense as he'd get 12 weeks SMP and the rest unpaid. As he earns (a lot) more than me, we'd have been crazy to take it up!