and an old prude to be upset by dd13's pornified take on life?

[tantrumqueensmum]

dd (13) thinks I am being totally unreasonable (so what's new) as I have taken her phone off her for the second time after she sent messages referencing anal sex and lube to a boy she barely knows (esp as one of the messages mentioned that said boy had asked my dd2 (only just turned 11) about lube - eurgghh.

Apparently, this is classed as 'banter' - as was the previous set of messages to a different boy she barely knows about prostitution with reference to oral sex?! (Ironic and 'jokey', according to her.)

I do not think this kind of topic is appropriate for anyone of any age to text to someone they hardly know. There is also swearing too - I don't like to see this in texts either but am less bothered about this and am prepared to let this go.

Should add dd goes to an all girls' school so sees boys as rather more interesting than they actually are. She certainly has no actual sexual experience though reads EVERYTHING not nailed down eg newspapers, books etc, and though internet filters apply, I daresay the odd thing there may also have slipped through. Presumably teens talk about such matters as well, and she also presumably picks up the general porn-inspired culture around us, where women are supposedly expected to look and act like porn stars in all contexts, no matter how inappropriate.

I've tried talking to her but despair of making her understand - have told her that that kind of 'banter' in the workplace would lose you your job, that texting/messaging is not the same as chatting in the flesh, as stuff is recorded potentially forever; but though in the past she's claimed to understand my point, she is now just weeping that she neeeeds her phone back, I'm killing her social life without it, and that this kind of chat is actually not that bad and 'all teenagers do it'.

So, dear MN jury, is she right? Do 'all teens' 'banter' like this? Am I prude? Or , alternatively, is she way out of order/in need of help (what help???) and how do I get her to understand how normal adults (or even teens) interact with each other on phones (or off them)?

[tantrumqueensmum]

I hope dd knows about not sending photos - we and her school have hammered the point home. I think she thinks the chat is 'different', because it's just 'banter', a 'joke'.

tantrumsandballoons - glad it worked out for your dd - will think about CAMHS but suspect dd would be really, really opposed.

[TantrumsAndBalloons]

Oh dd was opposed, so opposed that she threatened on several occasions to run away if we made her go.

We pointed out that in order for us to move forward then this was non negotiable. In order for her to be allowed to have a phone, Internet access, be allowed out with her friends then we had to know that she was safe and the only way we could know that was if she opened up to someone about how she felt and how this was affecting her actions.

She used to say she would go but she wasn't going to speak. I said that's fine, just listen then.

It's hard. And going through counseling at 13 is hard for them. But IME anyway it was worth it

[tantrumqueensmum]

Thanks, t&b.

[FlipFlippingFlippers]

I was like this and worse as a teenager. I'd sneak out to meet up with boys, take drugs, smoke, steal cars you name it. All at 13/14. I was always an A* pupil. I was always polite and sensible. I never got caught. The adults in my life had NO idea what I was up to. At the time I saw no dangers. I had a very strong sexual appetite from a young age and decided I wanted to find out about everything I could.

Eventually it ended up with me being sexually assaulted aged 15 as I had no idea where to draw the line or even how to say no. I was close to having a drinking problem and how I avoided getting arrested I'll never know. At the time none of it worried me. Didn't help that the one adult I told about being assaulted told me that its something that just happens to most women and I should just forget about it!

I'm horrified looking back now at how young I was and I worry for my own dd's. I think for me part of it wasddown to being bullied in primary school for being too intelligent so I was labeled as a geek. I wanted to shake off that image so badly at secondary school. I suffered through standard sex education when perhaps more frank open discussion would have been much more helpful. I assumed it was something you just did but didn't talk about. I think I still would of experimented as I've always had a very high sex drive, but I'd hopefully realise there were consequences to certain behaviours.

In an ideal world smart phones and unsupervised internet access should be banned for anyone under 16 but they'd still figure out how to do these things!

[tantrumqueensmum]

Phew, Flip - not exactly reassuring!

Am totally sure dd is doing none of what you describe as she doesn't have the unsupervised time, money, contacts etc. And she's not succeeding in no-one knowing - hence I have to go to her school to talk to the HoY later today. :(

But very frightening about where things can go.

At what point did you learn where sensible limits were and how? And what would have helped you if your dps had done? I do try to talk openly about stuff and to explain dangers of things but in dd's eyes, I'm just an old fogey who has no knowledge of what it is to be a teen. When of course, every parent has been a teen...

[tantrumqueensmum]

And yes, I probably did stuff that would have horrified my parents - but none of it actually dangerous(my parent's are easily horrified ).

[tantrumqueensmum]

But yes, Flip - my dd is the same as you as being v intelligent and scared of seeming a geek (though unlike you I don't think she was ever bullied for this, and ha lots of bright, cool friends, so don't know where she gets the idea that it's uncool to do well at school... :( )

[FrankelInFoal]

Is it worth having a dig around on the BBC's Newsbeat website for articles about sexting and the like. It's generally aimed at a teenage/young adult audience so she might listen to what is said.

[MrsMook]

In my last school we taught the y7s about sexting and its potential consequences in PSE. The CEOP resources are good at showing how it can escalate and get out-of-hand.

[Chattymummyhere]

I was a geek and bullied at my first primary.

By 12/13 I was sneaking out with older girls and boys, getting drunk, sending some very explicit texts, smoking I did not want to be bullied and a geek again. Met strangers from off the Internet.

I ran away from home for a week before I was found I moved out at 14 into a bf at the times house with his mum.

I'm now older married with children but looking back at what I used to do in shocked I'm alive today and was not found in a ditch somewhere.

I wouldn't go to strict though, my parents tried to ban me from a sleep over which resulted in me running away for a week and I know most the of the groups I hung around with this was the same parents banned something the person just found away around it, phone taken? Borrow a mates/steal one, banned from going out and doors locked? Climb out of windows,grounded? Run away etc

I think you will need proper help to get this "fixed" without it going too far to start with

[tantrumqueensmum]

@ Chattymummy -

I have been trying to 'listen' rather than just ban as I want her to understand herself what she should be doing - I think if I ban her from things I make themn more attractive plus as she's stubborn as anything, if I ban it she'll do it just to 'make her point' even if it's not what she'd choose to do left to her own devices.

eg she's asked me if I'd mind if she has a boyfriend, I've said no, that's fine etc. But that I'd like to meet him so I can stop her getting her heart broken and check he's not a psycho.

[tantrumqueensmum]

What kind of 'proper help' do you suggest?

[Chattymummyhere]

She needs a professional to talk to..

I never did but as I got older I have worked out why I was the way I was but by that point it was too late to change what had happened.

I was depressed, had low self esteem, abandonment issues etc

It was my step dad who was the tough one who handed out punishments my mum just listened to me but ultimately went with what my step dad wanted.

I self harmed, took tablets with alcohol just because it was "cool" and connected me to people who "liked" me, these strangers really are who made me feel loved and wanted but of course they all had their own agendas about what they wanted me for, the fb I moved in with I met online, he beat me up, got me drunk etc I used to meet much older lads as they had cars and could buy alcohol. In a sence you could say I was groomed online by the older ones and believed due to my own issues I truly believe if I had someone I could of talked to safely and openly and get help I would not of done half the stuff I did back then and I pray to god I never have to go though with my daughter what I put my mum though

[FlipFlippingFlippers]

I think perhaps she needs examples of real life consequences. It's so easy to text back and forth without thinking. For me I have no regrets but to some people I've thrown my life away. I was always very intelligent and found academic work easy. I had the world at my feet and had my pick of career paths. I now work part time at a supermarket to pay the bills. I have 2 gorgeous dd's and a lovely husband who I wouldn't change but on the other hand I could've travelled the world/had a high flying career. I'm not saying I'd be any happier or that there's anything wrong with supermarket work but I do sometimes wonder. My early teenage years through to my mid twenties were an absolute blast to be honest but there were some very dark and scary times in there which I was not an age to cope with (hence the drink and drugs). I sometimes compromised who I was as a person all in the name of having a laugh. Do you think it's all bravado from her or do you think she is having genuine sexual feelings?

[FlipFlippingFlippers]

chattymummy are we twins?

[Chattymummyhere]

Flip we could be siblings ha my bio dad did put it around an awful lot.

I think this happens more than people realise and it's not rebelling really as it's so quick to be labeled it's just at that age we don't understand why we feel that way and use whatever we can to feel happy/loved/fun.

It happens so easy a parent says the child is rebelling and is a terrible teen it's all hormones but most of the time there are much deeper issues that no one realised till much later on in life and by that point it can be too late.

[StepAwayFromTheEcclesCakes]

I was a bit wild at that age, sought out attention and believed I was totally in control of things, looking back I cringe as I was clearly so seeking approval but by being promiscuous I did not get it, I ended up getting used and abused on occasions I had such poor self esteem but at the time thought it was all good its only now i have grown up that I can see no one had any respect for me. Can she not understand that talking this way makes her look cheap and the boys will not want her for anything other than sex, they won't respect her and will talk about her in horrible ways giving her a reputation. I second trying the counselling and perhaps an assertiveness course. see if you can get her interested in the feminist articles so she actually does find herself empowered to deal with all the hormonally challenging stuff going on for her.

[ConferencePear]

There are some girls who are pleased to be 'geeky'. It can be quite trendy in an odd sort of way.
I wonder if anyone can suggest a way to make geekiness more attractive ?
I'm wondering if the geeks are no more of a minority than those who do this kind of sexting.

[freckledleopard]

Tantrums - difficult question as to how I got out of the mindset. I'm not sure I'm totally out of it. I'm still insatiably curious about everything and my personal life remains unconventional.

Essentially, my teenage years were like your DD's. I screwed around, had threesomes, arranged to meet strangers for sex. I smoked, drank and took drugs. Self-harmed on a daily basis. I still got A*s in everything though, so was able to get away with most of my 'bad' behaviour because, as long as academically things were fine, no-one said or did anything. Further, my parents really didn't take an interest in me, or what I did (which is a whole other story .)

Without wishing to alarm you unduly, I then got pregnant at 18 and had DD at 19 . In that sense, I had to grow up a little and try and look after a baby. I went with her to uni, got my degree, managed to stop self-harming. Got a job in the City (lawyer) and I guess professionally I'm successful enough. Personal life though, is still somewhat screwed up (divorce, several 'open/polyamorous relationships that have left me unhappy). I think, having spent so many years being different from my peers in one way or another, it's extremely hard to ever return to the 'norm' and I'm still marked out as being 'quirky' or 'odd'. Whether I would always have been that way, regardless of my teenage experiences, I don't know. I've always been different to my peers since I was a toddler, so I genuinely don't know how to be 'normal'. Having said all that, I do know that I was so, so miserable as a teenager and would have loved for anyone to have taken notice and actually cared about me. So the fact that you're trying to help your DD (however resistant she is), is amazing .

[SatinSandals]

I think that it is sad that after all the years of women's lib, girls seem worse off than they ever were. YANBU. In my experience, all girl schools are far worse than mixed in that many are sex mad.

[tantrumqueensmum]

Flip, tantrumsandballoons and freckledleopard - thank you all so much for sharing your pasts with me - lots to think about.

I hope dd isn't writing say 20 years from now about how as a teen she was so depressed, self-harmed, experienced sexual abuse etc. :( I hope the 'banter' is as far as it goes - but yes, am definitely monitoring carefully and trying to listen.

I'm glad to hear you all came out of it in different ways, and there's lots you say that really resonates with me - dd is an academic over-performer, is interested in everything (incl sex - which she not unreasonably imagines is more significant than it actually is, thanks to the media's/pop music's obsession with it). She is also a bit of a fish out of water, really - never part of the group, really, always trying to be what she imagines other people expect, rather than relaxed in her own skin - but I hope this is just teenage awkwardness, and that she'll find her own 'kind of people' to hang out with as she gets older and gets to mix in a wider variety of circles of her choice.

Like Flip, I suspect she will struggle to fulfil her academic potential - I partly blame her schools here, who have made such a thing of her being 'clever' that she at the same time has an inflated idea of her own abilities combined with an inner lack of confidence and fear that she may not actually be capable of achieving the high standards others have set for her. In some ways, I think things are easier for her less academic dsis, who can feel chuffed when she does well, but is not blighted with unreasonably high expectations before she's even started... dd1 currently says she doesn't want to do anything academic and wants to be a hairdresser, to which I say fine - as I know she has no interest in the hard graft of being a hairdresser, just wants a job she imagines is 'easy'.

I'd just like dd to be happy as herself - and above all else , safe!! It does sound like the teenage years are the worst - hoping dd can get through those safely, and find her own direction.

[tantrumqueensmum]

and @chattymummy too - apologies for missing your name off last post.

[Cerisier]

My DDs 15 and 18 are at a mixed school, the boys and girls seem to mix socially very well, particularly Y11 and beyond. They get to know each other through being in class together for years.

Would you consider moving DD to a mixed school where she can get to know boys in a more normal setting?

[ThenSheSaid]

I would have freaked out if my DDs or DSs had done this. It's really awful. .
I think all the explanations of why she did it may have an element of truth to them but I wouldn't rule out the fact that she simply didn't think and did it for fun.

I would disable messaging and internet from her phone for a good while and I would install a decent mobile phone security on her phone that will log and record all her messages.

HERE ARE DETAILS OF NORTONS FAMILY PREMIER. This will allow her to use her mobile and or computer safely. If you can't set it up then pay someone to do it for you. If you think she is unhappy now then imagine how unhappy she would be if she continues to engage in such harmful behaviour. (I don't know what type of security would be best for your DDs devises, you will have to research it)

I would only remove it when she was 16 AND after she has proven that she can be trusted.

I realise that she will be able to use friends phones etc but it makes it more difficult if her own devises are monitored.