and an old prude to be upset by dd13's pornified take on life?

[tantrumqueensmum]

dd (13) thinks I am being totally unreasonable (so what's new) as I have taken her phone off her for the second time after she sent messages referencing anal sex and lube to a boy she barely knows (esp as one of the messages mentioned that said boy had asked my dd2 (only just turned 11) about lube - eurgghh.

Apparently, this is classed as 'banter' - as was the previous set of messages to a different boy she barely knows about prostitution with reference to oral sex?! (Ironic and 'jokey', according to her.)

I do not think this kind of topic is appropriate for anyone of any age to text to someone they hardly know. There is also swearing too - I don't like to see this in texts either but am less bothered about this and am prepared to let this go.

Should add dd goes to an all girls' school so sees boys as rather more interesting than they actually are. She certainly has no actual sexual experience though reads EVERYTHING not nailed down eg newspapers, books etc, and though internet filters apply, I daresay the odd thing there may also have slipped through. Presumably teens talk about such matters as well, and she also presumably picks up the general porn-inspired culture around us, where women are supposedly expected to look and act like porn stars in all contexts, no matter how inappropriate.

I've tried talking to her but despair of making her understand - have told her that that kind of 'banter' in the workplace would lose you your job, that texting/messaging is not the same as chatting in the flesh, as stuff is recorded potentially forever; but though in the past she's claimed to understand my point, she is now just weeping that she neeeeds her phone back, I'm killing her social life without it, and that this kind of chat is actually not that bad and 'all teenagers do it'.

So, dear MN jury, is she right? Do 'all teens' 'banter' like this? Am I prude? Or , alternatively, is she way out of order/in need of help (what help???) and how do I get her to understand how normal adults (or even teens) interact with each other on phones (or off them)?

[Dilidali]

I think it is call sexting, I was reading about it in the newspapers a few weeks back. Apparently it is the new 'thing' amongst teenagers.

[BitOutOfPractice]

I check my DD (13) phone regularly and there is nothing like this on there. I feel so sorry for you because you sound so nice and worried.

Sorry I don't think this is "normal" or "banter" for 13YOs and I'm not surprised you;re so worried

[MammaTJ]

My DStD is nearly 30, not nearly 20.

[Corygal]

YANBU. It's rank. It probably is a group thing, so 'normal' for DD's friends, but you can bet your bottom dollar not all the groups at her school are doing it.

My DN, about the same age, was wildly put off a similarly hypersexualised girl, incidentally. He fled in horror, and that's probably just as 'normal'.

Sometimes saying something is normal doesn't mean it's ok. Remember what DD's friends are doing is the only yardstick here. I would talk to her about self-worth and sexuality. And explain she doesn't need to act like a ho to get a man.

[Mumsyblouse]

Not everyone may be doing this but surely a significant proportion are, if about a 1/4 of girls have sex under the age of consent and the Op's daughter is only sexting, it is far from clear she is having sex.

I think she is enjoying the power and fun of being able to chat to boys (forbidden, tempting) and just isn't thinking straight. You are doing all the right things by letting her know this is totally not allowed but also keep talking to her if possible.

Sadly, the pornification of our culture means that a lot of young girls think that this is their currency, what they have to offer. All those saying 'mine would never do that' they might not be yet, but give it a year or two and they well might- my friend has a child in a local grammar school and by 15/16 all kinds of things were going on which were a heck of a lot worse than an inappropriate text about things she is unlikely to be using.

[tantrumqueensmum]

Thank you for support.

I hope she gets through it but I hate it, I don't know why she has to do this. I think it is probably a self-esteem thing, I don't know - she's pretty, clever, has lots of friends...

The irony is the boys will probably be interested if she stopped being weird. As Corygal says, I suspect this behaviour would frighten off any nice normal boys!

[cjel]

that is a worry isn't it - the type of boys who would want to be involved as well.. You will pull through .xx

[tantrumqueensmum]

We desperately need more campaigns on the 'pornification' of our culture (sorry, horrible word I know).

We need to reclaim mainstream culture so that women in states of virtual undress wiggling their bums is not no 1 in the charts and on the front of newspapers etc.

I mean the female pop stars when I was growing up were Bananarama and Annie Lennox - who kept their clothes firmly ON!

[tantrumqueensmum]

Will look at the CEOP videos and Caitlin Moran books - thanks for ideas.

[JoanRanger]

:( The boys are probably passing those messages around at their school.

[tantrumqueensmum]

I know, Joan - but she doesn't believe me when I say this. :(

Or would think that was good...

[CiderwithBuda]

It's utterly horrific and so scary. I have a 12 year old DS and it horrifies me what he is facing.

DH and I went to an e-safety talk at DS's school last week. There were about 20 people there. He goes to a 'nice' mixed independent school. And only 20 parents were interested enough to go. And there are regular issues of sexting, FB rows/bullying etc. The school have had the police involved five or six times this term alone.

Apparently boys are actively collecting photos (naked etc) of girls as trophies. It's a big thing. They start 'relationships'. Persuade the girl to send a photo. Dump her. And pass the photo to all their mates. If I ever caught my DS doing that he would never have a phone again.

Popular culture has an awful lot to answer for. I grew up in the 80s too and my female role models in music were Annie Lennox, Chrissie Hynde, etc. Bloody Rihanna and Miley Cyrus etc sicken me.

I don't know what the answer is. Guest blog on Active Convos today is on this topic.

[Mumsyblouse]

Cider then then go on to collecting BJ's from girls they don't know. Really. It's quite upsetting. I do worry enormously about how girls are pressured into all this stuff, or even worse, feel empowered to do this stuff when it is not remotely empowering.

[CiderwithBuda]

It is really upsetting. In my day (old fogey alert) we were warned that no boy would have respect for us if we didn't have respect for ourselves. Now I admit I was brought up in catholic Ireland and that I wasn't pure as the driven snow but my God it was a lot more innocent. And there was respect. The boys were learning too. Now they are expected to know it all.

[smokeandglitter]

'Sexting' isn't that new tbh. I think you're right, OP. It isn't unusual, my friends and I definitely joked about it at that age.

Just wondering if there is a chance for her to mix with boys on a day to day level outside school? I went to a co-ed school and so boys were normal and I had good friends that were male, but my best friend went to a girls school and had no male friends up until about year 10/11 and by that time it was sort of awkward as she was not used to just chatting to boys.

Lots of support and hugs OP, I feel for you.

[freckledleopard]

I could have been like this at your daughter's age if mobile phones and the internet were invented. I was at an all girls school, didn't have any male friends and devoured every book and article I could lay my hands on that referenced sex/drugs/adult themes. I was desperate to lose my virginity and wanted to gain as much sexual and life experience as I possibly could.

Looking back, part of it was my insatiable curiosity to know and experience everything - sex, drugs, alcohol, smoking etc - and the other part was linked to low self esteem. I hated my school and set out (probably more unconsciously than consciously) to differentiate myself from the other girls at school. I didn't want to be like them and by going out, having casual sex, dating men in their 50s and taking drugs, I made damn sure that I was set apart from my peers.

I think at the root of everything was total misery and depression that no-one noticed or cared about. I was suicidally depressed, filled with despair and desperate for someone, anyone, to give a shit.

Could your daughter be depressed? Are there any older girls she knows who she would listen to and respect who could show her that porn and sexting isn't going to make her happy?

[abbscrosswoman]

I am struck by the fact that her father has not been mentioned. Is he around ? If so I would hope that he could represent the male view of her actions as well as reinforce your position ?

Most fathers that I know would be very put out by what she has done.......

[DrinkFeckArseGirls]

Maybe give a call to 101 number and ask for a police officer to come over and have a chat with your DD. I'm sure they'd be happy to talk about the dangers plus scare her a little bit. In this situation, I don't think it would be over the top.

[cory]

Mumsyblouse Wed 27-Nov-13 22:04:24

"Sadly, the pornification of our culture means that a lot of young girls think that this is their currency, what they have to offer"

This is sadly very true.

One thing to point out to your dd, however, is that by advertising the fact that this is all she thinks she has to offer, she is also advertising the fact that she is not very confident or (at least in her own mind) very interesting.

It's like walking up and down carrying a large banner with the legend "I have low self esteem". It is not going to do her any favours socially. Teens can be merciless against anyone perceived to be vulnerable- and most would (correctly) identify this as a pretty good sign of vulnerability.

[tantrumqueensmum]

freckledleopard - thank you so much for your post. Yes, I do worry she might be depressed and she makes it quite explicit that she wants to be 'cool', that she used to be (in her eyes) 'a nerd' and she is often (nearly always?) angry (a cover for depression?) at home. To some degree, that is totally normal teenage behaviour, and I keep her on a fairly tight leash (she has absolutely no friends who do anything 'risky' at all - all nice girls), so no one to get up to anything with, in real life. But we have this bravado, instead...

We've had a tough couple of years in some ways, plus she's always worried about stuff more than everyone else (eg we had a suspected infestation last year, that turned out to be ok - everyone else just lived with it, got on with things - she was angry/hysterical). So there are some reasons she might be depressed - plus just her personality, I think, a natural worrier.

freckledleopard - you sound ok now. Do you mind my asking how you got out of that mindset (assuming you did and are no longer depressed). I think you are also spot on about dd wanting to 'experience' everything - whilst her academic learning has gone down the pan, she's always been insatiably curious, wants to know EVERYTHING (she was the kind of child who would read encyclopedias for fun and memorise all the facts ) and I think she sees knowing about sex as an important part of what it is to be grown up, which in one sense it is - just not necessary knowledge at 13.

I think I need to get underneath the surface problem - inappropriate texts, desperate to pique interest of boys - to why she feels unhappy underneath and needs validation by boys/to be 'cool' rather than 'be herself'.

I liked your idea, smokeandglitter at getting her to meet more boys. I think normalising them is the perfect antidote. BUT only sensible if she's not going to sexchat every boy she meets...

And abbscrosswoman, yes, her dad is around and is as upset/baffled at what to do as me. He would favour banning her from more or less everything/v strict discipline - which whilst necessary to keep her safe, backfires on the self-esteem front, because she feels unloved/hard-done-by if she doesn't have a phone like her friends or is portrayed as 'bad'.

So catch 22... :(

[diddl]

But "banter" like this with your friends is so different to remote banter to boys you don't know!

I was at an all girls school & we would probably have mentioned this in a "isn't it revolting" way.

But to talk to boys about anything sexual at that age-no way & would have got you a bad name!

It's not really catch 22-she have have the phone if it's used in an appropriate way-not for "sexting"? boys she doesn't know!

[TantrumsAndBalloons]

You could be describing my dd 3 years ago. Only in her case she actually went a bit further and sneaked out of the house to meet one of the older boys she was talking to, and when we found out, she ran away for a day.

It was horrific. The police were looking for her, it was the longest day of my life.

Tbh there are groups of teenage girls who do this, not all of them. But it does go on.

In my DDs case, her grandfather had passed away a couple of months before this all started and I think her head was not in a good place IYSWIM.
She also had some self esteem issues which led to her wanting attention from anywhere she could get it.

She had counseling and we had family counseling. It has helped a lot but it took time. It was very difficult but we did come through it.

[tantrumqueensmum]

Where was the counselling from, tantrumsandballoons ?

And do you think you would have been able to access it before your dd actually went beyond texting into action?

I'd welcome counselling but not sure (well, strongly doubt) dd would - as in her eyes, it would mark her out as 'weird' or 'uncool'. But even if the counselling is just for me and dh, that would be a start.

[TantrumsAndBalloons]

Oh, she didnt want to go. We had tears and shouting and drama to even get her there but we got her there and it was the best thing we ever did.

The counseling came through CAMHS as we were referred to SS after she ran away. But you can go to your GP for a referral for counseling. You don't have to wait for something to happen IYSWIM. Be prepared for a lot of resistance to strt with though.

[QOD]

Tell her about my friends dd who has had to change schools as sexting progressed to sending a photo of her naked to her boyf, which got circulated round the school which got social services and the police involved as its child porn and got the boyf threatened with prison and ruined her reputation forever.

Purposely typed as one sentence as it was that quick a spiral.

I was talking to a fellow running club member the other day about teens and this sort of thing and she is a copper, says it happens all the time. It's such a progression from the talking to the photos and doing. It can truly ruin their life.