to think people stating they would never go to Seaworld after watching Blackfish are being naive?

[ThereWasOnceAGirl]

Of course I don't agree with keeping such beautiful creatures in captivity. However people watch this film and think their contribution would be to bravely say - I would never step foot in there again.

If you even do just a bit more research into it you can see that -

What happens when that place loses money, is that they will take that money out of the whales - pools become worse, they will have less environmental stimulation.

Or lease the whales back in the ocean. As lovely as that would be, do you honestly think any of them would survive after being in captivity?

Look at Keiko, who was released and craved human attention and died mere months after being released at a very young age.

Sea pens? Yes definitely a better way of life for them, but who would fund it? Because Seaworld won't.

As much as I know people are trying to take a stand, simply saying I won't go to Seaworld ever again or wanting them back in the ocean is not going to solve this horrible problem.

I never said he met his family pod, but endid mix with other orcas.

And there is no evidence he was malnourished when he died, his weight and condition were 'good'.

Have never been to anywhere like Seaworld or to a zoo since I was a young child. Even at that young age I hated seeing animals in cages. Keeping wild animals in captivity is an abomination.

If no people go to Seaworld or places like it, it may mean the current animals would be euthanised but it would also mean no other whales being caught to be kept in captivity which would be a good result.

The very fact you claim not to need to do more research when presented with your own twisted facts suggests its pointless in continuing this discussion you have decided YANBU so what's the point?

howling makes a good point about at least trying. 100 years ago animal circuses were common place but are no longer change has to start sometime why not now?

In regards to who would pay for the sea pens IMO the Japanese government And Seaworld should be forced to for their crimes against Orcas. But that won't ever happen.
There are plenty of other campaigners and those with wealth who are willing to put money into finding a permant solution.

The very fact you claim not to need to do more research when presented with your own twisted facts suggests its pointless in continuing this discussion you have decided YANBU so what's the point?

Someone in a very snarky way said I needed to do more research on Keiko - not the actual issue in hand. I was just summing up that it's not a Hollywood ending and if people want to read up more about Keiko then they can.

And YANBU/YABU - who gives a shit? Surely we are all looking for the same outcome?

I'm just saying whilst stating I'll never go to SW might be viewed as the best thing to do - it's not going to solve it and also has a negative impact too.

Er, I said you need to do more research because your 'facts' were wrong. Of you are going to use keiko as an example at least get your facts right.

And as for your YABU/YANBU who gives a shit comment, you're the one who posted in AIBU!!!!

The one thing that won't solve the problem is continuing to go to places like Seaworld though. Applying gentle pressure to improve conditions while still paying the entry fee will achieve nothing. So what do you suggest people do?

And as for your YABU/YANBU who gives a shit comment, you're the one who posted in AIBU!!!!

Ok ..... you seriously need to calm down. Because who really cares if I'm reasonable or unreasonable when I'm pretty sure we all want the same outcome.

What facts were wrong about Keiko?

He did still have a huge amount of interaction with humans after he was released.

And mere months, to me 15 months is not a long time. You would hope that his release would allow him to have a greater lifespan.

What exact facts have I stated wrongly? Yes I said them very much to the point but I don't see the point in listing extensive facts about him.

I'm open to discussion about it but my goodness it's hard to have a conversation when you are intent on jumping down my throat and being aggressive at every opportunity.

The one thing that won't solve the problem is continuing to go to places like Seaworld though.

I'm not campaigning for people to go. I'm stating that it's not the best way to help.

But what is your alternative because I'm not seeing that in your posts? Companies won't be held to account while they still make huge profits from large numbers of people marching through their doors?

YABU. SeaWorld is pretty easily avoided for the vast majority of the world's population. What are you suggesting they do instead of not visiting it? Make a special effort to visit it?

It's not 'the best way to help', no. The best way to help would be to dedicate your entire life to tireless campaigning and fundraising. That doesn't mean anything less than that is pointless.

The problem is there are parts of seaworld that do some partial good, the Manatee programme is good, these are animals that aren't safe in their 'natural habitat' I went to a Nature Park in Florida and Hicks aplenty speeding up and down the river is speedboats,speedboats etc usually drunk, no wonder so many are injured by boat propellors. Which of course impairs mobility and increases the likelihood of further accidents.

I think animal imprisoned for entertained purposes is whats worse, animals in zoo's don't have to earn their food through backflips.

Moved to Oregon in 1996 to an enclosure more than 90 times the size of his park tank.

In 1998 he was repatriated to his native Iceland where over time he was able to leave or stay as he pleased. Up until 2001 he was under the care of ex SeaWorld employees through Ocean Futures who were reluctant to allow him to leave for more than a few days at time. After they were replaced by the Humane Society who allowed him greater freedom he left for good in 2002, dying in Norway in December 2003.

It was never the case that he would ever be forced to fend for himself. If he had never left the bay he would have been cared for until his natural death. The whole point was to give him the freedom to choose for himself, which he did and he had that choice from at least 2001 if not 1998. That's more than 15 months.

Orcas can go up to a week without food, after two weeks they begin to low weight. When Keiko arrived in Norway after his 6 week swim he had lost no weight and was in good health. He was tracked following a zig zag pattern, and also diving very deep, both indicative of hunting and feeding behaviours.

Having spent almost his entire life in captivity, only the general public and other people who had little knowledge of orcas ever expected him to have an increased lifespan past that of a captive whale. 27 is sadly a good age for a captive whale.

So yeah, implying it was a disaster, (from 1998 onwards he was never required to perform, had freedom of choice, was nurse back to perfect health forte rest of his life, learnt to feed himself, met other orcas, reverted to 'normal' orca behaviours) saying he was malnourished when he died (which he wasn't) is incorrect.

I don't need to calm down, I'm just astonished that you are spouting off an opinion and and asking others to agree with you when you evidently have no or very little knowledge about the actual animals, their history and the circumstances.

When I'm trying to form an opinion on something, and definitely if I'm going to start debating about it, I at least take the time to educate myself about it first.

I think as more and more people become aware of the lives of these creatures by which I mean understanding the intelligence and emotional levels they have, then pressure will eventually be brought to bear on seaworld and we will see the end of the captive breeding and performances, what will happen to the whales in captivity already I dont know, but it was said in blackfish, hopefully in 50 years time we will look back and say how barbaric.
I think the issue could do with lots of celebrity exposure. strangely enough if people cannot be swayed by facts , you can count on them jumping on the celebrity bandwagon, at least it has its uses.

I'm in suburban England so it's easy for me to say I'll never go to Seaworld and will change very little. You're right about that, OP.

But imagine if you could ramp up the public shame and momentum until it was as unacceptable to display captive orcas as it was to sink ten whiskies and drive home.

If SW's revenues dropped, and the brand was tarnished enough, they'd make the gesture to redeem themselves (and by the way this is part of a multinational, multibillion corporation; they could afford to free every whale into a palatial sea pen by accepting a tiny cut in profits).

And the only way you increase momentum is by increasing awareness. I hadn't thought about the issue until I watched Blackfish; now I'm horrified and desperate to help. A couple more people might feel the same from reading this thread. They might spread the word on FB or Twitter. And so it goes.

So YANBU in that it's not the whole story - but YABU to say it's not worth making a public statement.

[And FWIW, I think Keiko's last 15 months was a stunning success considering the sh*tty lack of life he'd had for 20 years preceding.]

Heard someone talking about this programme this morning, and now see above fascinating thread. What channel was it on, please? Hoping to watch on catchup! TIA

Optimist, it repeats tonight on BBC4 (10.30pm) but is also on iPlayer though I think it's actually listed under Storyville.

Thanks a million, Silver !

OP - you want to hold SW accountable - by them losing money from lack of visitors it does so - what is your alternative course of action?

Sorry op, your argument is just weird. Of course boycotting these parks is a start - otherwise you are colluding with their barbarism.

And as far as keiko goes - I am sure he didn't feel sad that he didn't have the lifespan of a wild killer whale. I suspect 15 months of freedom was worth 15 years of captivity - as someone up thread said, he thrived in the ocean until he caught pneumonia (the most common cause of captive killer whale death). His body evidently suffered from his years in captivity as he was a healthy weight and condition following his migration.

Do you really think he would have preferred an extra few years in a tiny concrete pool?

OP

Your argument is the same as the one for sending children down mines, not having a national minimum wage etc etc.

It is simple economics, supply and demand. As long as there is demand for the show it will continue.

It's not as if one day suddenly no one will show up, it will be a decline over time.

The point is not to make them release present orcas into the wild, but to discourage them to carry on acquiring new ones or breeding the ones they have. If a few present individuals have to be put down but it saves hundreds from ending up in that situation in years to come, then it will be worth it.

It's like elephants in the zoo: when I was a child every zoo had them, single specimens or couples in tiny little concrete enclosures. These days it's getting to be a rarity, reserved for zoos that can actually keep them. The zoos are still going, and carrying on their conservation work: in fact they are doing far more of it than they used to. They are just not buying elephants.

If they just stopped breeding them, then in about 30 years there's be hardly any left in captivity, since hardly any of them live past that in captivity. I was going to add 'who his tragic' but actually it might be a mercy for them.

That would be a good place to start, and easy enough to legislate I'd hope. But you can bet your life seaworld would throw all their might and money behind lobbying against a captive breeding plan.

Yeah I said that before, breeding needs to be nipped in the bud.

making females breed earlier/later than is natural, with males they aren;t compatible with, repeated insemination etc.

Sorry howling missed your post!