to think that the majority of lawyers are arseholes

[FunnysInLaJardin]

I know I am one, but having spent 5 years outside the legal profession I can now see lawyers for what they really are. Arrogant, combative arseholes. They on the whole seem to exist in some kind of other universe where everything is an argument which they have to win. I mean I did know this when I worked in law, but now I am on the outside I can see what twats a lot of them are when compared to the population as a whole.

There, that's better

City lawyers are a distinct breed, aren't they? A room full of people doing legally aided mental health work, or campaigning environmental law might be very very different. And I'd be interested to know whether people thnk female lawyers are by and large different from male ones, or not

One of my best friends works in the City, in a slightly left-field (for the City) area populated by people who like the City salaries but could not cope with the levels of arseholery in broking and more conventional City areas. He and his colleagues are very funny about what utter tits a lot of City people are. It is a place with a fairly malign culture (but then, with a lot of amazing people doing astonishing philanthropy too).

Funnys - I don't live in a bubble and like to think I know how to interact normally (obviously others might disagree!). I do other things outside my work which are the polar opposites of my job as a lawyer - my "day" job doesn't define me or put me in a bubble at all.

I am not a "distinct breed"!! I am a normal person who happens to be a lawyer in the city. I think it's very odd you think that way. We actually do a lot of pro bono work and environmental law (that exists in the City too you know). As said above, I also do things outside my job as a city lawyer which is totally different to my day job.

I'm a lawyer.

Sometimes I agree with you, but I think that's just because some lawyers are arseholes and that's what you notice.

It is a very combative, confrontational world, and I find it quite tiring having to be assertive all the time. I don't mean by that that I think I need to be rude while at work, but you can't show any weakness when you are acting as a lawyer. It's not an easy job.

That said I've definitely met lawyers who have left the real world behind a long time ago!

I've been surprised that the ones I have met haven't been that clever.
I've met a couple of right duffers. My sil is one and she is frighteningly stupid, even her brothers are wtf?
She thinks she's the dogs danglies as well, would compare herself to Helena Kennedy if she knew who she was

Yes, I agree with you Mim78 that you can't show any weakness and you have to be assertive. Perhaps that results in others thinking they're arseholes? I actually find it very difficult to appear to be self-assured all the time and do tend to show weakness from time to time (and them I'm promptly told off for it). On the whole though I like the people I work with.

It's a job that most people would be unable to carry off without a degree of brass neck, I suspect.

Eld Until you have worked in the City you would never understand it. Its a world in a world. Bloody brilliant place to work in my opinion. Spent the best 27 years of my life working in the City............and are most 'city types' arseholes. Absolutely NOT.......and whats wrong with working your arse off and earning loads of dosh.

Yep. Us City lawyers are evil with a side order of Machievelli. We troop around in our black power suits and stomp on all who annoy us. We refuse to exit out bubble or money and power.

Or alternatively we get up in the morning, get dressed, say bye to the baby, spend the day smacking our heads against the wall because the client wants everything yesterday, get frustrated because the other side in the pro bono case is being a dick (because they know it is pro bono and don't have any incentive to speed up), miss out on lunch because the conference call overruns by 2 hours, and then spend the afternoon trying not to let the traders/bankers/etc we are currently dealing with us ride roughshod over us.

I work in an office full of City lawyers. We are 98% very nice people and just want to get on and sort out whatever mess our latest clients have gotten themselves into. The other 2% would have been twats anyway.

I worked in IT for a top 20 law firm. Not all of them are arseholes, I promise.

Some are utterly, utterly lovely.

Surely it's the same in all professions?

The best bit was watching trainees start, spend a few years boozing, snogging and learning and then, like little butterflies, emerge as associates and then fully fledged Partners.

It was a wonderful thing. (Especially if they tried to be all jumped up and important and try to get special treatment on getting their laptop fixed only to be told, "don't try that with me young lady, I held your hair back in All Bar One not so long ago!")

• our bubble of ffs

It probably depends on your experience... I a sure there are some very good ethical lawyers out there representing good causes.

Estate agents and loan sharks on the other hand......

and whats wrong with working your arse off and earning loads of dosh

Where did I suggest there was anything wrong with that?

Apologies for 'distinct breed' that sounds awful and I don't mean to, because I don't actually subscribe to the theory that all lawyers, or all City lawyers, are arseholes.

Nor do I think 'most City types' are arseholes, but based on my own experience (I work in the City of London, though not in what is conventionally thought of as 'the City') and those of my friends, I do think the levels of arseholery are higher than in a lot of other working environments.

But fundamentally, arseholes are always with us, though never in the majority (not even in the News of the World newsroom).

DH is one. He is lubberly.

but seriously YABU there are nice and nasty people in every walk of life.

timetoask .. Are you saying that if a lawyer works in any other area than charities or human rights they are unethical?!

I know lawyers, architects, recruitment consultants, bankers and "meeja" people who are arseholes - I also know many people from those professions who aren't.

However - if you met a group of 20 lawyers in a room, and 4 of them were really awful, arrogant people who derailed every conversation with their arguments, then you would come away from that meeting thinking "Ugh, lawyers are the worst!" but I think it's mostly that they're the ones that stick in your head and not all the nicer people.

Yabvu and generalising ridiculously.

I work at a city firm and there are of course some people who are up themselves, as in any line of work, but most people are normal. Also as others have pointed out we do a LOT of pro bono in the city so its not a case of nice lawyers from small firms helping the world versus nasty city workers arguing their way and crushing everything good!

tedmundo: where didn't mention charities or human rights? What I meant by ethical is: lawyers who will look to work for the morally right outcome rather just looking to make as much money as possible.

So a divorce lawyer, that does his/her best to help his client, giving them honest advice without fleecing them, not adding unnecessary costs to their clients for the lawyers own benefit, is in my view behaving ethically.

A criminal lawyer who is also giving good advice to his drug tycoon client is not behaving ethically, because he is helping an immoral cause.

opps: meant to write: "Where did I mention charities or human rights?"

How do we feel about "Stubbed your toe at work...?"

timetoask .. You actually said "representing good causes".

I would say that there is good and bad in every profession. However I know what you mean by the arrogance bit. I used to work for immigration and came across hundreds of solicitors and barristers. I was pretty shocked at first at how stupid some of them were. I originally thought only really bright clever people went into the law!

Also, the example of a criminal lawyer giving business advice to the drug baron to support the drug business would not be unethical, s/he would also be a criminal.

A criminal lawyer defending the charges brought against a drug baron client would not be unethical either as thank fuck we live in a world where everyone is entitled to a defense.

A criminal lawyer who is also giving good advice to his drug tycoon client is not behaving ethically, because he is helping an immoral cause

Good advice on what to do in the criminal case? Surely that is what the lawyer is supposed to do. It is not unethical to represent even the worst criminals, provided the lawyer acts properly, within the rules of his profession, and with honesty.