To think the way to encourage breastfeeding is to back off and do nothing at all?

[misspontypine]

I have been reading about the ways that breastfeeding is encouraged in the UK, it makes me so angry to read about posters saying breast is best and people being refused formula in hospitals and trials to give incentives to breast feeding mothers. The idea that women need such intensive advertising to make life choices that they are perfectly able to make without simplified adverts is very wrong in my opinion.

I am British but I live in the Sweden. Last year I had my ds in Sweden and my experience of breastfeeding preasure has been non-existant. The midwife wanted to know that my baby was latching and his nappies were yellow breastfed baby poo rather than black before we went home but apart from that there were no posters of classes or incentives.

Most mums breastfeed, a handful don't, a close friend of mine formula feeds because she had problems with her milk comming in. She intended and tried to breastfeed but she couldn't so she uses formul, that is how she sees it, an English friend came to visit me and we all got together. My English friend had breastfeeding issues and ended up ff her baby, she was talking about the guild and regreat and grief surrounding her failed breastfeeding attempt, my Swedish friend was really confused, she sees it as a medical need.

My ds was (very allmost) conceived by IVF, I know very well that a woman's body doesn't allways do what it is "supposed" to do.

In Sweden if you need breastfeeding help you can easilly access it, people don't tend to hide their boobs, nudity is much more excepted, my dp's family have mixed sex saunas so a bit of a bit of nipple isn't going to make anyone blush. I think these things help make breastfeeding work well but I also think that letting women make the decision to breastfeed (or not) as adults, without any simplified, in my opinion patronising, posters is the way forward.

AIBU? Has anyone ever decided to breastfeed because BREAST IS BEST!!! has been so pushed on you?

I agree with that misspontypine. For example, in ks1 (5-7 year olds) there is a science unit about growing and changing, and there is a lot of work around babies and how they are different to how the children are now. I think we should be dropping in references to breastfeeding as early as that- along the lines of 'babies drink milk from their mums, or sometimes they have milk out of a bottle'. Put the breastfeeding reference first, so that is seen as the norm and bottles are an alternative.

I bottle fed quite simply because I could get DH and others to take a turn when I felt like an extended break without the faff/torture of expressing. The freedom of being able to go away over night, spend a child free weekend away.....

How do you get round the fact that if you breastfeed, it is you and you alone. You are trapped.

No I don't think this would work here

There is a culture here of passing horror stories of bf down to pregnant women. The same could probably be said for labour/birth. I only heard a couple of positive bf stories while pregnant.

Plenty of 'friends of friends' stories told in hushed tones and also lots of quiet warnings of 'its not as easy as you think'. Yes maybe, but just being negative about it is not helpful to a pregnant mother.

Not to mention questions like are you going to use formula or 'the other way'

The best thing you could ever do to improve breastfeeding rates is ban all advertising of formula,

And yes I chose to bf because of the benefits for baby.

If I didn't know the benefits I would have just used formula of course, why else would i have bothered changing to something that is less commonly done when there are no benefits!?

Sweden has much higher percentages of breast feeding mums - its very low in the uk.

All the pro breast feeding information gave me the confidence to breast feed for a length of time and not be put off by others comments

it's not that most women can't do it without support, ime babies just latch and feed hourly for the first few weeks!

I don't think it is that easy though. Without the help and support of the midwives at the hospital DD would have been on formula within 24 hours as she just was not interested in latching on. Also I have lost count of the number of people who have tried and failed to breastfeed their babies, mainly due to lack of support. If it was that easy I'm sure that there would be more breastfed babies.

I bottle fed quite simply because I could get DH and others to take a turn when I felt like an extended break without the faff/torture of expressing. The freedom of being able to go away over night, spend a child free weekend away.....How do you get round the fact that if you breastfeed, it is you and you alone. You are trapped.

But I didn't want to spend any time away from my baby. A child free night or a weekend away was the last thing on my mind.

What we need to do is normalise breastfeeding without being evangelistic.

Yes sorry but YABU.

It works in Sweden not because nothing is done at all, but because BF is so normalised that you don't notice what's being done. It's all taken for granted. A hell of a lot of work and planning has gone into that for decades, which is why it's so successful. You're mistaking the competence of the Swedes as doing nothing; it's a bit like when households and childhoods run smoothly - no-one notices all the work that goes into making sure stuff does run smoothly, they only notice when it goes wrong.

If we did "nothing at all" in the UK, we certainly won't get Swedish outcomes.

Personally I think if we dropped the whole notion of the benefits of breast feeding and called a spade, a spade ie pointing to the risks of formula that would go a long way.

I'll have to dig out my copy of Politics of Breastfeeding, but I'm sure there was a country with very low breastfeeding figures.
Advertising of all formula (infant and follow on), bottles, and anything to do with not breastfeeding was banned, rates of breastfeeding shot up.

Advertising is insidious, it's everywhere, to the point that you don't notice that it is bombarding you, and the adverts are cleverly made to sound like they're fully supporting breastfeeding, when actually, by using subtle language - vocal and body, they persuade people that bottle is best. Of course they do, formula milk is huge business.

Next time you see the aptamil advert on tv, note how uncomfortable and uptight the mother is when breastfeeding, how cold and up inviting the room looks, even the weather is cold and unattractive. The position the baby is being held looks uncomfortable and distant.
Shift to the bottle feeding scene, the mother' sharing is down, she looks relaxed, happy, bonding with her baby as it drinks from a bottle, the weather is lovely, the room looks warm and inviting.

It's not a conscious decision that makes bottle feeding seem easier, more attractive, it is devious advertising. It should be banned.

Breastfeeding is rarely seen on tv, films etc. In cafe scenes on soaps, there should be breastfeeding mothers in the background occasionally - not in your face, but just there. Breastfeeding should not be held up as this amazing thing, because that makes it unattainable to many. It should be portrayed everywhere as normal, bog standard.

If the government has money to pay people to breastfeed, they should be putting the money into raising standards in breastfeeding support instead.
I live in an area with relatively high breastfeeding rates, the majority of those who don't have been failed by experts giving them dodgy advice.

I think japan have it sorted. 5 days in hospital. That's right right 5 days with food coming round, doctors, nurses. The mum doesn't have to worry about anything but her baby. She can establish breast feed over the first 3 days so let down comes in and any nipples that are starting to crack are dealt with. if the baby isn't putting on weight the formula nurse will come come round. After that they usually go to their mums house for 3 months, again so they can concentrate on the baby. Not for everyone I know, but five days :)

5 days sounds brilliant. I didn't even get that post CS, when notoriously milk may be slow to come in, since no labour etc. With dd1, I had her on the SUnday, and was home On Wednesday. With dd2, I had her on Friday night, and went home on Monday morning. With ds I had him on a Tuesday, and was home Friday morning. All 3 were CS.

Agree that the support in hospitals is just not there (somehting which would need to change if a 5 day stay was implemented). If I had stayed 5 days with dd2, then I may not have ended up bf her, as the midwives nearly scuppered my chances - I ended up in a bed which was lie flat only, so couldn't move at all the first night. dd2 was put into her fishbowl, and whenever I woke from dozing and rang to get them to hand her to me, they just told me 'oh, it's only been an hour, leave her, she'll soon let you know if she wants you'. I was nearly in tears, and couldn't rest as just wanted dd2 tucked in with me, and so the midwife took dd2 off for a wander to let me rest, promising to bring her back if she woke.

She didn't wake (post CS baby, anyone?), and by the early hours of the morning was so jittery due to blood sugar crashes that she couldn't latch on. MOst of the ward staff were all for a formula feed at that point - there wa sonly one midwife (who was just going off shift but stayed to help me) who helped. I expressed colostrum, and she fed it to dd2 via a syringe, over the next couple of hours - a drip and a drop every couple of minutes, and we got her back on track. Bloody lucky we did - she was in a right state.

So 5 days of useless help like I originally had (well meant, but useless) would have been the death knell for bf.

The breast is best campaign worked well on me.

I knew next to nothing about babies when I found out I was pregnant, dc1 was unplanned. So I read the baby books and the baby magazines, the message came through loud and clear that breastfeeding was the best start in life I could give my baby, so that's what I did. No brainer.

i was under no pressure at all - it was over 30 years ago. i read up about babies and did the right thing. i was lucky, i had a wonderfully supportive breastfeeding counsellor in the isle of man (are you out there? i still appreciate what you did for me. and i saw your daughter and you on youtube i think, and your middle son's name on the internet)

so where was i? oh yes, encouraging breastfeeding. make formula unavailable. give serious amounts of money and status to older women who've breastfed and can support new mums (ie me. and other old biddies. we need the money and we like to see the new babies).

and stop women thinking that they have to have their breasts enhanced in order to be attractive, and that the only purpose of breasts is to attract and entertain men. that's the real problem in our culture.

If you are going to prompted breast feeding the correct support must be in place. The lactation person in hospital was a total witch. Manhandling my boobs to "get this baby latched on". I came so close to telling her to fuck off but i was too upset. With treatment like that is it any wonder people give up. I did succeed though but my milk only came in after i went home.

Promote *

5 days in hospital with a load of midwives who had no real clue about breast feeding with one nipple torn almost through made me never want to set foot inside a hospital again. You need the right people in the hospital for that to work. Women who have bf for long periods of time are definitely a better option than inexperienced midwives but well qualified lactation consultants might be best all around.

Totally agree.

Vastly more is spent on formula promotion than is spent on breastfeeding promotion in the UK.

Is that a problem which worries you OP?

And do you think the government should stop all health promotion, or just breastfeeding promotion? Because you can use exactly the same arguments in relation to smoking and obesity. After all, we're adults. We know what we're doing. We have a right to smoke and overeat without interference. And how dare anyone try to make us feel bad about being fat and addicted to nicotine and at risk of a premature death!

IMO the NHS has a duty to encourage healthy behaviours. Especially where adult choices have implications for the health and development of children, as they do with breastfeeding.

In Sweden most people breastfeed. They also tend not to be as fat or drunk as we are in the UK. maybe they just don't need health promotion because they're clearly already making good choices. Can't be said of the UK sadly.

I wasn't "allowed" to BF in hospital with DS2, we were in for 3 nights and he was 5 weeks prem, we weren't in special care and the MW's wanted to know exactly how much he had taken for when he had blood glucose tests, I had told them the day after he was born I managed to get him latched on and would like to speak to someone about BFing and doing it right and was told not to. I asked for a pump and was told you can't use a pump or express for 60 hours after birth,!

He was literally force fed formula because they weren't happy with the 25ml he had taken (I mean forced, bottle was put in his mouth and rid back and forth to flow the milk even though he was choking, he threw it all back up obviously and I was told that I had to do it and keep doing it until he kept it down. I refused and that is the only time his blood sugars dropped nasty witch.

I told them before I left the hospital that I would be BFing when I leave, I asked to hire one of the hospitals pumps to help and was told that they did not condone me BFing him and they wouldn't ask about a pump.

Went home, started BFing before a top up feed and you would not believe the difference in help when I told the MWs that come to the house! One of them was meant to be my HB MW and was fab and did all she could to help.

I EBF (apart from the odd bottle or 2 of formula a week when I was having supply issues at night) for a few months but then started mix feeding (75-80% BF) and still am at nearly 21 weeks. :o

5 days in hospital would have put a stop to that! For that to work our hospitals and hospital staff would all have to be up to standard and nice people.

I don't think it would work by doing nothing at all, we would have to ban any advertising related, I think.

I think paying people to do it in shop vouchers is patronising and pushy though.

Schrow - bloody good for you for sticking to your guns!

The UK has lost an entire generation of bf mothers - and they have a huge impact on their daughters. Everything from bottles on cards and babygros to friends and family pushes the idea that artificial feeding is perfectly normal rather than an unusual substitute for babies whose mothers can't or won't feed by the standard method - for whatever reason.

Lots wouldn't though, I'm just the stubborn type. Attitudes really need to be changed.

It goes from hospital to hospital as well. The hospital I had DS1 in pushed the "breast is best", the second wasn't fussed I guess, with bad information at best.

Both had a trolley come round of free formula every few hours asking if anyone wanted any, naming all the types so people can choose!

Breast is best absolutely gave me the confidence and tenacity to keep going with bf. I was the first of my peers and family to have a baby. The only person I can think of who bf was my aunt whom my mother and GM thought was a slattern who didn't do enough cleaning (tbf she was a mucky pup but she had 5 amazing kids, all bf, so cleaning was probably the last thing on the agenda). I had no role model or experience of bf and wouldn't have persevered had I not absorbed the breast is best message.

Thing is, the absence of 'breast is best' wouldn't make a level playing field...