To think that small children don't actually need police to tell them not to be late to school?

[Brittapie]

Just took DD1 (6yo) to school 3 minutes late (I know, I know, there are good reasons in this case but that's not the point of the thread) and spent another five minutes waiting and getting told off by some kind of police/pcso and some random high vis jacket woman before being allowed in. Poor DD1 was really scared and DD2 was late for nursery (not before telling me to tell the nasty police lady off )

AIBU to think that is ridiculously heavy handed? We've not had so much as a mention in the newsletter or anything to persuade chronic late families, and it's not like small children can even choose what time they set off.

I know children should be at school on time, she usually is, but I messed up here. I know I did. I had them both up and down all night (I don't know why), I'm full of fairly heavy duty medication at the moment and they both wet the bed so I needed extra time to get them cleaned up, and DD2 had one of her mega tantrums too. I know I should have left extra time and woke them up early, but I didn't, I was wrong.

But I am now shaking (I have bad experiences that make me really scared of police) and both my children started school even later and more stressed than they were. I understand they need to do something, but this is silly.

(I also told them off for saying compulsory school age, instead of education, but that is because we are an ex HE family and I was annoyed...)

XH just came round to pick up DD2. He says he got a newsletter on Friday (he picked them up from school) mentioning that the police would be here, because of a central government initiative.

WTF?

Is the newsletter on the school's website? It would be useful to read that before you complain. I think you need to go to the Governors as the Head obviously thinks this is a grand idea. Make your points: that you have had bad experiences with the Police before and now your children have a bad experience, that you were coping with a difficult morning and they made it worse, that you don't find this at all welcoming and community-building (whatever fluffy words they use on their advertising/website).

Just took DD1 (6yo) to school 3 minutes late (I know, I know, there are good reasons in this case but that's not the point of the thread)

but that is the whole point, for whatever reasons you were late, if you were on time then none of this would have happened. Maybe it was a one off and maybe it does seem heavy handed but people who are constantly late are disruptive to everyone and bloody selfish.

If you feel that strongly then complain to the HT

Who was the one actually doing the telling off? The pc or the woman in the high vis jacket. Years ago I was stopped by an attendance officer when I had my daughter at the opticians. It really annoyed me because there were exceptional circumstances but I just got a lecture. She was accompanied by a pc then, I believe its usual practice.

Reply from the police officer:

Dear BrittaPie,

I am a Police Officer who works in the Early Action Team at xxxx Police Station and responsible for organising the attendance week of action that is running this week.

I am more than happy to telephone you or meet with you to explain the reasons behind the attendance week. The Police have been working alongside the Pupil attendance support team for many years in a multi agency role with the schools. We look at targeting primary schools as well as secondary schools, to instil the importance of attendance and punctuality from an early age.

No one is 'told off', they are spoken to if they are late for school to encourage them to be on time. The people working the week of action are selected for their experience with working with young children.

My office number is xxxxxxx or if you would prefer I could meet with you at the school.

Many Thanks for your enquiry

FirstName

PC xxxx xxxxx xxxxx
Early Intervention Officer
Early Action Team
xxxxx Police Operating Centre
Phone number

How does a primary school age child have any control over what time they get to school?

I would be seriously unimpressed if we had a lecture about it, stuff happens sometimes!

Its not nice to be told by a police person about lateness but it is a preventative measure. The police eventually deals with the fallout of parents not doing their job of getting and ensuring their children go to school and on time. Some of these children go and commit crimes.

Others don't but if it can make one parent change their ways its helped society.

"No one is 'told off'."

So basically the PCOS is telling you that you (and your son, who described it as being told off at the time it happened) didn't really experience what you in fact experienced.

I've read some bad non-apologies in my time, but that one really takes the biscuit.

"The people working the week of action are selected for their experience with working with young children."

Looks to me like they need to re-think their selection process.

Being late for school does not lead to a child committing crimes. It is more likely that a child who comes from a background where they are more likely to be late will go on to commit crimes. That doesn't mean that if you fix being late, you stop them committing crimes.

That's like saying banning tracksuits would cut anti social behaviour.

www.lancashire.police.uk/about-us/departments/professional-standards/how-to-make-a-complaint - there are a number of things wrong with the conduct of this officer, not least of which was interviewing a minor child without an appropriate adult present. You're doing right to collect as much info as you can, too.

(What's wanted here is someone a lot more current than me on police powers to come up with a set of legally-acceptable sarcastic responses that won't be grounds for arrest. From personal experience 'does your head go all the way to the top of your helmet?' is not one of these.)

www.adviceguide.org.uk/wales/law_w/law_legal_system_e/law_police_e/police_powers.htm#Whencanthepolicequestionyou

"Do you want to ask that question again under caution? No? Then I'm going to be on my way." Do not tell the officer to fuck off and get a real job, no matter how tempted you are.

"Do you want to ask that question again under caution? No? Then I'm going to be on my way."

I'm as law abiding as they come, but I wouldn't give a policeman the time of day without a solicitor present, and I've advised my children the same. For an American, but nonetheless universal, perspective on why, , by a man who speaks very quickly, is a good way to spend 48 minutes.

How can a primary school think this is a good idea?

How about using a carrot instead of a stick to get parents & kids to school on time?

At DDs school they had an attendance week and every child who got to school on time got a sticker. At the end of the week there were prizes for the class with the most stickers. The children were really motivated to win so pestered their parents to be on time. And it was the first time in 2 years that DD didn't dawdle on the school run

Right, I've drafted a response, but tbh I think I need to not send it because I'm rambling and annoyed. Maybe collect more info first?

Anyway, this is what I've written.

Thanks for getting in touch.

I am concerned about the decision making process behind the use of such an intimidating method of "encouragement" for primary school aged children. Children were prevented from entering the school grounds by two adults, one in police uniform, the other in a high vis jacket, and told to give their name to the police officer. When I approached the school less than five minutes late three unaccompanied children were also trying to enter, with one of them being in year one - this must have been scary for him, because it was scary for my year two daughter who had me to speak for her. This child would have been around five years old and was spoken to without his parent or any adult that he knew.

I am also concerned about the decision to ask why children are late in front of other children. Although I realise it isn't acceptable for me to bring my children late to school (although of course being stopped made them even later) the reasons behind it included the fact that my daughter had wet the bed and needed to be cleaned up. It is not appropriate to ask such questions in front of other children, and would ideally be asked in private.

I would like to know how this issue requires a police officer to be involved at all, given that lateness to school is something usually dealt with by attendance officers from the LEA, who would normally work with families with persistent attendance issues. I am very interested to see the evidence that must have been consulted to say that involving police in a blanket approach towards children this young (if reception children were included, some will have been below the age where they are required to be in full time education anyway) when it isn't actually within the control of most of them. In my opinion it would be more appropriate to speak only to the parents involved, and not in any circumstances in front of the children or by the police.

I am unable to meet as previous traumatic experiences mean that I find it extremely difficult to talk to police, although no consideration seemed to be given for this possibility, which must be an issue for some children at the school as well. It is, in my opinion, much better to try and foster a positive relationship with the children and parents of the school, rather than one of intimidation. If the object wasn't to intimidate, why the decision to include a uniformed police officer? There are plenty of opportunities for police officers to build a trusting and positive relationship with the children, and being involved in "encouraging" parents to be on time isn't one of them, especially when "encouraging" would normally be a positive reinforcement or a general talk.

As a family, we are new to the school, so please forgive me if this has already been provided, but where can I find the data that shows that schemes like these don't decrease attendance by children and/or parents who are intimidated? Where does the funding come for this scheme and what is the intended outcome? Does this outcome tend to be achieved on a long term basis? How does it compare to a more targeted and sensitive approach?

Your wasting your time writing to the police. You should be writing to your local council and MP. It's them who started the initiative.

I've just seen XH go past with the DDs on their way home from school. DD1 was carrying a bag of clothes, so she must have wet herself at school today. She's not done that in year two :-(

Probably unconnected. Possibly not.

Should I send that reply and CC the councillors and MP?

Attendance officers are always accompanied by a police officer and have been for years. That isn't about the children but the attendance officers safety, its just standard policy. I get the impression that it was the attendance officer who gave the 'telling off' not the police officer in which case focus on the right person and make you complaints and enquiry to the lea.

Mmm. haven't read the whole thread but

"small children don't actually need police o tell them not to be late to school" and you being ticked off aren't quite the same thing?

I don't think you should write to the PC, not worth your time. Write to the school / LEA.

The opening post details unaccompanied young children being dealt with in the same manner onemorechap

I would make it a little more succinct and also remove why you don't wish to speak in person. It's none of their business.

Could anyone here provide any evidence or guidelines saying police shouldn't contact children without an adult present?

I would also challenge her on 'you were not told off'. That us how you and your children interpreted it so you were told off.

I'm in bed ill with a mushy brain so can't help with writing right now mushy brain is not my actual medical condition, it just feels like it

Nope not in opening post lll but I see later on, thanks. Seems a poor way to go about it; now leaning on the parents - yep fair dos.

[FWIW, I walked my kids to school from where I'd parked some hundred+ yards away( I was AP, so usually Monday morning), never got there late, and got screamed at for telling some traffic wardens what a good job they were doing ticketing Chelsea tractors.]

I think given you've now found out the initiative came from the school/LEA I would be writing there next, rather than the police officer. I don't think your beef is with her - rather with the person who sent her to school in the first place.

Yeah, if they had just told me off for lateness going over x amount a term or whatever, then fair enough. I'd be embarrassed but it would serve me right. They could then ask quietly if there was any problems making us late (there isn't, well not anything that can be helped) and maybe offer guidance fr where to get help for anything if parents did have an issue. A much better response that I am sure would have better results.

Sorry, you're right.