to think that due to lack of state school places parents at private..

[PancakesAndMapleSyrup]

Should be able to claim from the government the funding that they would receive for their child at a state school towards their fees? I am well aware that many people believe that private schools are for those with deep pockets but there are many parents who cannot afford to buy a house or rent more than a shed size property near a decent state school therefore approach an indie school, (bursary, no holidays ever, no external activities etc). If all indie schools were to close we would be right up shit street for places as there are a lack of them anyway as it is. So aibu?

Are the people keen on loading 20% onto the price of private schools equally keen on loading 20% onto university fees? They operate under the same exemption. It's hard to see how you could change one without changing the other.

I have 4 Dc. Two are in private education, one is in nursery and one is a baby. I think that private schools should lose their charitable status.

In Scotland, every child is guaranteed a place at their catchment school (you can do placing requests for catholic schools, Gaelic language, if you just want to). If you don't get in anywhere else, your local school must take you, there are no children left without a place.

I think that sounds better.

I'd totally not agree with people getting help/tax breaks for private education. You don't get a tax break for having no children!

"Are the people keen on loading 20% onto the price of private schools equally keen on loading 20% onto university fees?"

Its nothing like the same.

There are loans and burseries to help with the cost of higher education and universities are required to have access funds if they want to charge fees above 6K. There is huge pressure on universites to encourage partisipation from deprived backgrounds if they want to charge 9K fees.

There are loans and burseries to help with the cost of higher education

In terms of EU VAT law, that's completely irrelevant. There's a Europe-wide bulk exemption of tuition fees being exempt from VAT, and the UK implementation of that is HMRC Notice 701/30. It covers the whole spectrum of tuition, including FE and HE, private schools, EFL schools, the whole lot. It's not contingent on charitable status, nor on access arrangements: it's simply a blanket exemption.

The stuff about whether or not universities can charge 6K or 9K, and the basis for that, is entirely besides the point: whatever they charge, on whatever basis, they don't pay VAT, and nor does any other European educational establishment. So there's no requirement to encourage participation from deprived backgrounds for international students, without whom the entire UK university sector would shrink to half of its present size, but they don't pay VAT either. Raising UK international student fees by 20% would have a pretty dramatic effect on UK universities, and not in a good way.

If children are able to get spaces 2 and half miles away then I don't see the issue with spaces

But then my nearest provision with an autism specialism is 2.9miles away. At secondary it's 8miles away. I transport at the moment because it's under 3miles and at secondary I may have to transport depending on complex negotiations with the LA and how successful I am at this stage with changing wording on statements...

2 miles is nothing and IME some parents are willing to transport miles if they can get into a school with a good reputation or a village school.

2 miles is nothing and IME some parents are willing to transport miles if they can get into a school with a good reputation

That's the "some X's will do Y, therefore other X's are inconsistent if they won't do Y" argument.

The parents who genuinely struggle to transport children a few miles and the parents who will bus their children across the city in a 4x4 for the tiniest perceived advantage aren't the same parents. It's pure "let them eat cake" to imply that because yummy mummies with a lot of money and a Range Rover will drive five miles to avoid the poor people a school that isn't perceived as the best than an unemployed single parent with three children, one of whom has special needs, are making a fuss when they say that a two mile journey is impossible.

2 miles is nothing. Walking to and from school for 2 miles is not that big a deal for most people. Of course there will be exceptions, but it is false to pretend you need a car to cope with a 2 mile journey to school.

Friday

I said that as an unemployed single parent with a child with SEN...

For what it's worth distance to school is a whole different issue when you add in SEN...

Like living 0.2miles too close to your school to qualify for transport and being made to sign waivers to transport so you get the school you want THOSE are issues - as is your child being transported over a hour to their nearest placement or them not qualifying for transport until they reach school age yet only one nursery, 8 miles away bring suitable to take them.

Those are journey to school issues....someone having to travel 2miles to school is not. My son previously went to a village school with other a 100 pupils and not one came from the village, the nearest pupil lived over 2 miles away....

And when I said 'school you want'
I of course meant the ONLY school with suitable provision in a 10 mile radius..., 'Want' lol

One of the enormous benefits if independent schools us that they are exactly that. The government don't constantly change their curriculum or swallow up funds in new schemes.

But then my nearest provision with an autism specialism is 2.9miles away.

My sons special school is 6 miles away and is the only suitable provision and I transport him to school myself everyday, but that doesn't mean that every parent of a young child can transport their child 2 and a half miles to the nearest available school everyday.
A reception aged child will be weary at the end of the day and reluctant to make a 50 minute walk. Sometimes the parent has other reasons which make walking that far difficult (and time consuming). Some people are in the situation where they have different children allocated different schools several miles apart - how do you think they manage to get them all to school on time and then coordinate picking them all up on time?
A five year old should be able to go to a school within reasonable walking distance if they want to do so and there are schools close enough to the house.
Just because you and I find it manageable to transport a child several miles everyday doesn't mean everybody does.

Hello all, this has been an interesting read for me and i take all points on board. Yes I do have a huge lack of understanding with the tax legislation, quite frankly all i look at is what exits my payslip i have not a lot of further knowledge nor do i claim to. I only asked this question as it was brought up in our office at work and interested me. I do agree that there is not enough funding by far into the state system. I have been educated in both. It was brought up due to the argument that all children have a right to an education and something that another poster touched on was that for example in france the teachers salaries are paid fpr by the state therefore only a top up fee being required. Making it much less expensive. Also the fact that in most of europe if a child fails its end of year tests they.are require to repeat the year again. I just wanted the.consensus.and feed back off of mumsnet as i am a bit.of a daily lurker to these boards. Please excuse the.grammatical errors and spelling this.is.not the easiest phone to type on! an.education

for example in france the teachers salaries are paid fpr by the state therefore only a top up fee being required.

That's essentially the "free school" model. It means that the schools are controlled by the state, and in France that state control is extremely heavy-handed. The old joke that the French Education minister could look at his watch and know what was being taught in every classroom in the country is not far from the truth, and the French education ministry is the largest employer in France, in the way that the NHS is the largest employer in the UK. The usual English middle-class Francophilia means that French education, rather like French wine, is accorded a respect rather greater than reality justifies.

*If there were no fee paying schools would all those parents who are so committed to their kids education that they are prepared to pay huge sums put up with the standards at your average state school?
Or would they push (and push and push) for those schools to improve, have better facilities, offer more language tuition, have swimming pools... ?

Fee paying schools don't cream off the best kids, they cream off the best parents and those parents are a genuine loss to the state system.*

If I am anyone's idea of a best parent then frankly you should all put your children into care now.

That is such a myth! Parents at indys work, generally both of them and both of them well-paid, unless one is earning an absolute fortune (around £250k plus IME). They haven't got time to go around fund-raising for play-ground equipment or worrying why the chemistry teacher isn't up to snuff despite his Oxford phd.

No. I don't agree that this should happen. It would lead to even deeper divides in the quality of education provided.

YABU.

Its unaffordable. And also it would help middle classes and not those who couldn't afford the top-ups, which is why its a dreadful idea politically and why it would never ever happen.

Yes the government should encourage opening of more new free schools in areas with shortages (and my wonderful friend has helped to set up a new primary free school in North London where there is a severe school place shortage). I am involved in a limited capacity and its going to be a wonderful school for lucky children. All paid for by the state - because a group of parents MADE IT HAPPEN. And open to all - not just middle class parents who can afford voucher top ups .

I keep good health. Can I have a refund from the NHS, because I don't visit my GP?

My neighbours are housebound. Can they have a refund of Council Tax because they don't walk on the pavement?

My sister does not have children. Can she have a refund from the education budget?

If I go on holiday and stay in a bedroom with a beautiful view, can I have a refund if I promise to keep the curtains closed?

Parents at indys work, generally both of them and both of them well-paid, unless one is earning an absolute fortune (around £250k plus IME). They haven't got time to go around fund-raising for play-ground equipment or worrying why the chemistry teacher isn't up to snuff despite his Oxford phd.

I don't think that just because parents work in well paid professional roles, it follows that they don't have time to support the school. They may prefer not to, that's a matter for them, but our school has many professional parents who are highly motivated to take on roles in the Parent Council and they find a way to squeeze it in between other commitments

Parents at indys work, generally both of them and both of them well-paid, unless one is earning an absolute fortune (around £250k plus IME). They haven't got time to go around fund-raising for play-ground equipment or worrying why the chemistry teacher isn't up to snuff despite his Oxford phd

Can't speak for all parents but I do agree with this. In our current roles, DH and I would not have time to do this. That's why we want to send our DD and any future sibling to what we believe is the best school, with the best provisions so we dont have to worry about it and we are in a fortunate position to have more options because we can go private. I go on ML on Monday but even then I will continue to work on major projects and major clients. Before anyone says its illegal etc. i understnd the legailty behind ML and provisions have been made It's just how it is! Any spare time we have, we use as quality time together, with family and close friends. Neither of us have time for fund raising etc.

Yes the government should encourage opening of more new free schools in areas with shortages (and my wonderful friend has helped to set up a new primary free school in North London where there is a severe school place shortage). I am involved in a limited capacity and its going to be a wonderful school for lucky children. All paid for by the state - because a group of parents MADE IT HAPPEN. And open to all - not just middle class parents who can afford voucher top ups .

The free school model is essentially private school paid for by the state and I think it is very wrong. If you want to be free from state control, free to follow a different curriculum, free to employ whoever you please etc then you shouldn't be able to get state funding to provide it.
Open a school by all means but if you want it to be funded by the state then it should be controlled by the state in the same way as other maintained schools.

For the person up thread who mentioned the French private school model; the Republic of Ireland also pay the salaries of teachers in private schools and parents cover the cost of buildings, teaching materials, other overheads. Ireland have considered scrapping this scheme but have repeatedly decided not to as they fear it will cause a huge influx into state schools and cost the country more than it does currently for education.

Academies, and the freedoms they enjoy, were invented by Labour. Free schools are simply academies which have never previously been state schoo's (because they are new or conversions from the independent sector). Their "freedoms" are sharply curtailed by the level of funding (cannot set own fees), the Admissions Code (cannot be selective, and cannot have artificially low PAN), the requirement to use standard exams (SATS), and to have their results reported in league tables.

Where I live (Australia) we don't have a voucher system but private schools do get state funding. Private schools get about 40% funding from the federal govt, state schools get 40% federal/60% state govt funding. When I first moved here from the UK I was outraged that private schools got govt funding but now I think it makes sense.

About 30-40% of children (varies by state and age group) are educated privately here because it is affordable which reduces the funding strain on state governments, almost all faith schools here are private but often low fee so catholic/muslim/jewish etc parents can usually manage to send their children to a faith school and state schools get to remain secular (although there is a optional RE lesson each week in primary). They do have to follow the national curriculum though and do all the national tests etc. Children from very rural or remote areas (12 hours drive from their nearest school) will often have the their boarding school place subsidised as well.

Special schools and selective schools are still usually state underfunded.

It's not perfect but it isn't as awful as it might seem if you are used to the UK model, DS goes to a state school and I love that it is fully secular.

YABU unless I can have a tax rebate for the times I used my private health insurance to have treatment that I would have otherwise had on the NHS?

scaevola
Frankly I am not concerned about which govt set up academies and free schools. The fact remains, that I think if you want the state to provide the majority of the funding then you should be fully controlled by the state in the same way as other maintained schools.
The idea that free schools have to do Sats is also a red herring because they do not have to follow the national curriculum. Doing a little test at the end of the year isn't really state control.
The admissions couldn't be artificially low at free schools because the level of funding would not be enough to meet all the costs if admission numbers were too low. regarding league tables; at senior level you will find the majority of all schools (private, state, free schools) in league tables as they all do GCSE's.
I still disagree with free schools and think they should all become state maintained (and controlled) schools.