Shouted at during work meeting

[Gryffindor]

I have just returned to work after 8 weeks off (fell ill on holiday - very genuine, work provided with certificates, accompanying GP letters etc).

I work in a very stressful environment, think male-dominated, high-pressure, long hours etc. On my first day back I joined an audio call with 5 colleagues from across my organisation who sit in different teams. One man, who I have had some issues with in the past (he can be very intimidating, and has said work-related things that he later denies) shouted at me after about 30 seconds and said:

"Shut up Gryffindor, you are really annoying me".

Unfotunately, this is nothing unusual, but after being ill and also out of the work mentality for 2 months it has really upset me. I hadn't even said anything controversial, I had literally just started talking. Unfortunately, I work in an unpopular function which is often villified for "hindering business".

My direct boss is lovely and supportive, but despite being a huge household name organisation there is literally no support in place for people (particularly senior men) to be accountable for their actions. Far from being an isolated incident, this kind of thing happens all the time, I just feel as though my armour has been chinked and I'm struggling to move on. AIBU to be upset?

Conversely, if women behave in anything other than a demure manner we are criticised for being "agressive" and recommended to have training in influencing and communicating. Total double standards.

Sorry, this is a total rambling mess but even writing it out is helping me feel better.

[HeadsDownThumbsUp]

It depends on what you mean by successfully manage!

It just seems to me that the general problem here is an aggressive workplace full of everyday bullying, and the advice given has effectively been to bully back. Really, what's the point in anyone complaining about the bullying, aggressive culture then?

[HeadsDownThumbsUp]

Is that the bottom line then, Andro? Be an aggressive jackass or gtfo? That you get paid well, and part of the price is sucking up that macho bullshit? If so, what's the use in complaining about it?

Is cultural change just impossible then? If so, is all that matters getting what you want/need out of a situation using whatever means necessary?

Is that the message and advice industry representatives give to female graduates on the milkround?

I'm interested.

[EBearhug]

We have a bullying manager who tends to shout at people.

He doesn't shout at the few of us who have stood up to him. The best response came from a colleague who asked him to stop shouting at her, said she deserved to be treated with respect, and if he didn't apologise, she was going to stop the meeting and he could reschedule it when he was in a better frame of mind. She later admitted to be she was absolutely bricking it while saying it, but it didn't really show - she clearly felt quite strongly about what she was saying, as there was tension in her voice, but I wouldn't have known it was fear rather than anger, and she kept it under control.

It is far, far easier to talk about doing this than to actually do it, and I hope I would have the nerve to respond in a similar way if it came to it, but I don't know if I would. I'd probably get all red and shaky and high-pitched. Having said that, I have stood up to him in the past, and he now doesn't speak to me at all, which is sort of a result, although probably not the best one long term.

[WallyBantersJunkBox]

The difference is that posters on here seem very unlikely to bully people because of their own inadequacies or insecurities, and more likely to just reflect unacceptable behaviour back at the culprits to make them aware of how it feels.

And the reality for some of us is that there is no other option but to fight your own battles.

[Retroformica]

Can you directly challenge and say 'xx you need to act in a more professional manner'. Treat him like a naughty child while you are the grown up

[Retroformica]

Or go below the belt with' I pity your wife' and carry on like you hadn't said anything

[EBearhug]

Is cultural change just impossible then?

I think it is possible. It takes a lot of effort and investment from the company, and of course it doesn't happen overnight, but it is possible - I worked for an American bank, and there was a definite culture change in my time there, and there were various compulsory courses and workshops as part of that, which everyone had to attend.

There's also culture change going on with my current employer, although not everyone (useless manager in previous post, for example) has really noticed yet, but other departments I have noticed the difference. Again, there's a lot of compulsory training and internal propaganda on the expected behaviours, and there's stuff on everyone's annual reviews that means we're assessed against it. I admit I was a bit sceptical at some of the stuff that came out to start with, but I am a convert and am using it in examples of how useless manager is not following the company's core values and so on.

To be honest, most of it can be summarised as, "be a normal human being and treat others with respect," and most people should be able to behave that way by age 10 or so, but we do seem to have some people whose parents failed on the basic stuff. (Yes, I am being judgey.)

[damejudydench]

What do you think she should do, Headsdown?

A large organisation can change but it will be driven by the person/people at the top. If the senior management use a stick to manage their staff that becomes the norm and it will filter down through the organisation.

IME, the little people in big organisations who take on these type of managers in the correct way (i.e. involving HR, logging incidents, raising a grievance, etc.) often find that they are seen as a trouble maker and managed out at the earliest opportunity.

Yes, it is totally wrong but unless you have worked in that type of environment alongside these type of individuals it is nigh on impossible to comprehend that this is still going on in 2013!

[Coupon]

"Did you mean to be so rude?"

[damejudydench]

[HeadsDownThumbsUp]

What the OP should do obviously depends on what end result she wants. She and I might want very different end results in similar situations.

FWIW I have worked in very aggressive, macho environments before, and I have also worked with out and out workplace bullies. But these were both in totally different sectors to the OPs. Though similar in that HR was either non-existent, or totally remote (based in Costa Rica) I managed both situations very, very differently.

So I understand that people who choose to follow reasonable and legal grievance procedures are often managed out, or sidelined which amounts to the same thing. Or, in the sectors I worked in, just plain old sacked!

But, at the same time, I can't help but notice all the balls to the wall rhetoric on the thread, and the "if you can't beat them, join them" attitude. It really seems as though you are saying that individuals are completely unable to contribute to cultural change unless they happen to be in position of exceptional power.

So, I'm genuinely interested. Is cultural change impossible to institute? Are graduate entrants told that they'd better get their "balls on the table" or gtfo? And is there any point at all in complaining about an aggressive culture if the only adequate response to aggression is aggression?

[damejudydench]

HeadsDown, that's great. If your approach worked, albeit in a different industry, what did YOU do?

[Mimishimi]

Ah, so that is that how you talked to your ex-wife/girlfriend? Now, regardless of your annoyance, at least have the courtesy to let me finish what I had to say.

[HeadsDownThumbsUp]

I'm not sure it's directly applicable to the OP's situation.

But in one notoriously dick-swinging environment I received far, far harsher treatment than someone shouting at me to say they were annoyed. I was shouted at daily. Sworn at daily. Almost constantly belittled. And once I was bawled out because someone else caused a workplace accident which sent a load of broken glass down on my head. As you can imagine, I had absolutely no political capital in that workplace. Obviously there was no HR department, and there's no real legal protection for any staff in that sector at all. Honestly, the best I could do to "manage" that situation was to keep quiet and focus my attention on the best parts of my job instead. I saw other people manage the situation chiefly through insouciance and by building relationships with the most difficult members of staff by socialising with them out of hours. I wasn't prepared to put in that level of energy and commitment just to deal with a bunch of idiots. Ultimately, I "managed" that situation by coming to the realisation that it was an entirely disfunctional team that I had few compelling reasons to work with, and I left. That was a good outcome for me.

The other situation involved shouty, sweary managers and a level of intrusiveness and surveillance that people struggle to believe when I tell them about it. HR was based in overseas, and the only way to contact them was through a line manager. Hahaha. I raised a query once only for a senior manager to shout at me and point threateningly in my face in front of over fifty people. At that point I hardly felt the need to say anything, since their behaviour was already making them look completely ridiculous to a sizeable audience. In other situations I was never aggressive or hostile. I couldn't afford to be. I stayed calm, and was matter-of-fact about stating my point of view and why their behaviour was inappropriate, (and in some cases unlawful). I never had to apologise, but was often apologised to.

I did not go down the "grievance" route regarding anything that happened to me personally, but I did end up raising a formal complaint regarding the way another staff member was spoken to. It simply had to be done, because senior staff were being verbally aggressive towards fairly vulnerable people. That just has to go on record. Doing that didn't help me, but I don't regret the decision.

That's a long post. But to be blunt banking is far from the only sector where bullying managers rum amok, and macho bullshit is the norm. Yet it is one of the few sectors where such behaviour is valorized. And projected as powerful...or even glamorous. Is that healthy? For the sector, or for wider society? If this behaviour is so problematic, why is emulating it the best response?

[WallyBantersJunkBox]

But how is leaving without mentioning anything about bullying making a change to this kind of environment?

[HeadsDownThumbsUp]

Which situation, Wally?

In the second situation I did make a formal complaint due to the completely unacceptable treatment of another staff member.

In the first situation...mention it to who, exactly? For all that's said about banking being some corporate jungle...there are at least notional complaints procedures and HR teams, there are formal and informal pathways for mentoring and support. There are many, many workers who have far less support and protection. So what's with the self-congratulatory "predator/prey" shtick?

[hoboken]

Have a stock of one-liners for every situation and use them

'Gryffindor, you are really annoying me...'

Answers - You can get tablets/self-help books for that.

Tough! Now, lets get on with business shall we?

Oh dear, PMT again?

I am delighted to have had such an effect on you, at least we know you are awake

Really? Gosh, you mean you were actually listening? Unusual.

Is that relevant?

Pity about you. I'm here to talk about...

Sorry, did someone speak?

And yes, I do work in a male-dominated atmosphere where egos are constantly on display. I challenge with humour, I am not afraid to belittle the belittlers and always defend anyone junior. I only ever speak in that manner to people who show me disrespect.

[Chottie]

OP - well done for doing so well in a male dominated atmosphere.

I have read your post with interest as yesterday I was shouted at by a man in meeting. He had a rant and then stormed out of the meeting. He is a complete waste of space. Unfortunately I have to work with him.

The HR route would not work for me either. This man is a petty, vicious individual and there is no level he would not stoop to. I just hold him in complete contempt.

I don't have a solution for you, but please do not let this man 'force' you out, you have obviously worked very hard to get where you are.

I wish I had the balls and strength to face him out. It's heartening to read how many ballsy women there are. > The trouble is he is untouchable as has the CEO in his pocket......

[Lavenderhoney]

I used to do lots of audio calls with lots of shouty people, of both sexes.

1- he/ she does the actions ( not minutes, if you were there, make your own notes) of the meeting controls the meeting. Give them some work to do. Make sure the agenda is set and no surprises.

2- when they have finished, pause a beat and say " let me finish please,"

3- tell your boss and have them come in and sit with you but not say they are there. Then they can jump in and say " its big boss, just stepped in to the call to check progress, now look here, tosser, you need to listen not shout" the shock will shut them up.

1. Have a call with their manager and tell them the problem. Also email them and say you are doing this as its unacceptable. You do it on the phone first, privately, and if they shout send an email instead.

1. Try to clear up and resolve difficult issues with the individuals before the meeting, so you can say " x is an issue and the idea is to do this, which is great" action is x, any questions?" If anyone rants, they will be in the minority, let them, then say, well the consensus is this, so if its a massive issue to you, please discuss offline with x as its been agreed we do it like this. Next item on the agenda... And don't be drawn.

If you are NOT running the meeting, complain to who is and say they need to step up as you won't be shouted at. And if it happens again, say someone else should be running the meetings. Not shouty pants though, or why have a meeting?

Good luck.

[FunkyBoldRibena]

"Shut up Gryffindor, you are really annoying me".

a - 'I'm sorry, I didn't quite catch that, could you repeat it for the minutes please.

b - 'How are you spelling 'annoying' please. Thanks'.

c - 'Yes, that's my job...get over it'

d - 'And I forgot to bring my sad fiddle today, what a shame'.

e - 'Its a dirty job 'Shouty man' but someone's got to do it'.

f - 'Oh no, annoying you - oh dear! Poor thing!

g - 'Of course I'm annoying you - it's what I do.

h - 'Oh dear, shall I get you a first aider?

[TiredDog]

This thread is quite refreshing in terms of the advice on how to deal with crappy work colleagues.

I work in a female dominated industry paralysed by useless HR policies and procedures. So the logging of incidents, involvement of unions and frequent meetings to address 'unacceptable' behaviour happens (all very time consuming) but doesn't really effectively address it all.

A male manager alongside me has mastered the technique of insidious poor behaviour. All the involvement of HR in the world will not change him. Every HR meeting becomes derailed by minute examination of detail when we all know he's doing stuff. Proof and context is hard. He shouted at me sounds terribly lame and is not a career move tbh

I have developed a similar behaviour just for him (...sugar coated of course because I'm a woman and it's expected ) but it catches him off guard when he is expecting to play the HR game and he knows how to play that. I don't call HR in, I respond in kind making sure I always lovely and not helpful when doing so

[PastaBeeandCheese]

Funky I've used the fiddle line......

'Wait, wait.... no, I haven't got my violin with me today'.

Good luck tomorrow OP.

[MamaBear17]

I haven't read the whole thread, but I usually find the following line works well when dealing with aggressive collegues:

Right, you obviously need some time to pull yourself together, ill come back when you've remembered how to behave like a professional.

You must then walk away and do not respond to any further insults. In your particular case, I would go in and see the person when he is on his own and simply tell him that the next time he speaks to you in such an unprofessional way you will file a complaint. Tell him you would welcome an apology but will not listen to excuses or get into an argument about it. Then walk away.

I have dealt with many an arsehole like this and always manage to keep the moral high ground and the support of my colleagues. I stay calm and strong, then go into my office and cry! Good luck x

[YouWithTheFace]

There are better banks out there! My husband has just escaped from one with similar cultural issues to yours to a much smaller one where even the back office count as people :) Don't get paralysed by the false idea that this is as good as it gets - my husband has the same salary for 75 percent of the hours and 6000 percent more respect.

[stinkingbishop]

OK...slightly different suggestion. Are you in Legal by any chance? Or similar support function?

I was never rude to our lawyers but GOD they could drive me up the wall. I was the Marketing Director and it seemed they took real relish in banning me doing any advertising at all...it was all getting very frustrating and tense.

So I did the controversial thing of having a frank and honest discussion. Trying to see their point of view, and explaining mine. One of the things that came out was that they were bonussed (money being quite a key factor when it comes to how people behave in the workplace) on receiving no complaints at all. And I was bonussed on things like cut through of the ads (ie it was in my financial interest to make them provocative). So directly opposed.

I therefore took this to the MD, asking them to change the legal bonus so it was on upheld complaints...problem solved.

When the shouty guy said you were being annoying...try to think WHY that might be. I am sure you are making perfectly valid points, but is there any way your function might be stopping him from achieving what he needs to in order to do his job properly? Is there any way of having a calm discussion with him about it?? I just wonder whether, if this is the City, he's all about sales, next year's summer holiday depends on him hitting some targets...and you (not personally, just your function) may be an obstacle in him achieving his targets. So either you need to work together, or the targets need to be changed, or...